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Old 13-05-2014, 19:22   #241
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
Gee I love Australia. We may have our own problems but the courts are for the people.
Hmm. OK.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:23   #242
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by Kevin84 View Post
Jammer and Capt Bill, I think you both have excellent points. Guys I've been in two police states (Iraq and Afghanistan). In my opinion (and only my opinion) a police state does not inspire anger in its population. It inspires fear and despair. A true police state will not anger it's population, it will cause its people to cower in fear.
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An interesting observation. It would seem to me to depend on the individuals involved. It seems to me that some individuals in those countries have been angered to the point of picking up weapons and killing people. Is that anger or despair? I think very few people in the US are are ready to start killing people, but that does not mean we are not moving towards a police state.

If you were in Iraq and Afghanistan it is not likely you remember a time in America when you had to be proven guilty in a court of law. This is something we call in the scientific world a changing baseline. For instance when I go to a coral reef in the Florida keys I see dead coral, few fish, and massive destruction because I saw it nearly 50 years ago when it was still healthy. When 20 something PhD students see the same thing they see a beautiful coral reef. Why? they have no reference point from which to judge. The coral reefs of today become their baseline. It may well be that if I had seen those coral reefs in the 1910s instead of the 1960s I might have thought they were dead or dying then. The only reference point I personally had was in the 1960s. If your reference point is 1990 then you’ll have a completely different baseline than me so it's unlikely that you'll see the deterioration, where I do. It doesn't mean that your evil or bad or even wrong, you just are judging the situation from a different baseline. You and Jammer seem to be comparing the law enforcement/Police state situation today in America with Iraq, Afghanistan, and North Korea, where I am comparing it to the United States of America 50 years ago. It is clear to me we are viewing this from completely different baseline. It's like you guys are saw coral reefs with no life left on them at all and you are now seeing the reefs in the Keys and seeing some live coral, some fish, and it looks wonderful compared to what you saw in North Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm looking at the exact same reef that I saw 50 years ago and you see now and what I see is devastation. I fear the day when your view is the same as mine.

I'm under no illusion that things were perfect back then, they weren't. In some ways the police were more out of control back then, but they were violating the law, not enforcing it. I was once robbed by the police in 1971, so I have no illusion that the police were any better back then than they are now. The difference is that the cops that robbed me were violating the law. They knew it and I knew it. Now these guys get to be cop, judge, and jury and they are doing it lawfully or at least with the appearance of law. In my view that is a major difference.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:25   #243
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
Gee I love Australia. We may have our own problems but the courts are for the people.

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Sounds like I may have to come stay a while in this Australia place you speak of.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:29   #244
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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The reality of a full blown Police State does not happen overnight. It creeps. You think you live in a free capitalist country? Try saying something publically in a negative way about sexual preferences, the president or Islam. You own your house? Try missing a tax payment on it. See how the Police State works in reality.

But back to the term Police State: Wiki states:

“Because there are different political perspectives as to what an appropriate balance is between individual freedom and national security, there are no definitive objective standards to determine whether the term "police state" applies to a particular nation at any given point in time. Thus, it is difficult to evaluate objectively the truth of allegations that a nation is, or is not becoming, a police state. One way to view the concept of the police state and the free state is through the medium of a balance or scale, where any law focused on removing liberty is seen as moving towards a police state, and any law which limits government oversight is seen as moving towards a free state.”

This sound familiar?

“An Electronic Police state is one in which the government aggressively uses electronic technologies to record, organize, search, and distribute forensic evidence against its citizens.”

This sound familiar?

It will come as a surprise no doubt that the Constitution is all but been overridden by new laws, and that EVERYTHING you take for granted and a contribution to American Society no longer has the protection of the Constitution in a meaningful way. The Governments of the world work on the principle of “We will do what we want and you can sue us, if you can afford it” but they do what they want regardless.
Its too late for most things. Governments are organized and the citizens are not. Whether your sensibilities allow for it or not, Europe and America comprise of Police States. They are just being nice about it for now.
Unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me. The Constitution has been being publicly undermined for decades and surreptitiously for far longer. War is government's single biggest aly in destroying freedoms once taken for granted. As an example: restrictions on basic human rights (such as freedom of speech and the press) are readily accepted during time of war as necessary for the common good. Once people have become accustomed to them, there is no impetus to restore them. The US has been doing this since at least the Civil War when Lincoln would imprison anyone who dared publish articles critical of the war or in support of slavery. Yet, these same restrictions, if passed in peace time, would cause immediate and widespread rioting. The Patriot Act being a prime example, along with the NSA's current warrantless searches of electronic records.

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Old 13-05-2014, 19:40   #245
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
SNIP

For instance when I go to a coral reef in the Florida keys I see dead coral, few fish, and massive destruction because I saw it nearly 50 yeras ago when it was still healthy.

SNIP
First time I went to the Florida Keys was in 1954. My Dad parked his car on US1 by Jewfish Creek and we fished there all night. Never saw another car, less yet a LEO.

The reason the reef are (as you call it) dead is because too many people anchor on them, dive on them, fish on them, and deposit waste on them. This is the same reason there are LEOs out there, because there are too many people.

There are a lot more people doing a lot more bad things. Too many people and we all lose some freedom.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:41   #246
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
An interesting observation. It would seem to me to depend on the individuals involved. It seems to me that some individuals in those countries have been angered to the point of picking up weapons and killing people. Is that anger or despair? I think very few people in the US are are ready to start killing people, but that does not mean we are not moving towards a police state.

If you were in Iraq and Afghanistan it is not likely you remember a time in America when you had to be proven guilty in a court of law. This is something we call in the scientific world a changing baseline. For instance when I go to a coral reef in the Florida keys I see dead coral, few fish, and massive destruction because I saw it nearly 50 years ago when it was still healthy. When 20 something PhD students see the same thing they see a beautiful coral reef. Why? they have no reference point from which to judge. The coral reefs of today become their baseline. It may well be that if I had seen those coral reefs in the 1910s instead of the 1960s I might have thought they were dead or dying then. The only reference point I personally had was in the 1960s. If your reference point is 1990 then you’ll have a completely different baseline than me so it's unlikely that you'll see the deterioration, where I do. It doesn't mean that your evil or bad or even wrong, you just are judging the situation from a different baseline. You and Jammer seem to be comparing the law enforcement/Police state situation today in America with Iraq, Afghanistan, and North Korea, where I am comparing it to the United States of America 50 years ago. It is clear to me we are viewing this from completely different baseline. It's like you guys are saw coral reefs with no life left on them at all and you are now seeing the reefs in the Keys and seeing some live coral, some fish, and it looks wonderful compared to what you saw in North Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm looking at the exact same reef that I saw 50 years ago and you see now and what I see is devastation. I fear the day when your view is the same as mine.

I'm under no illusion that things were perfect back then, they weren't. In some ways the police were more out of control back then, but they were violating the law, not enforcing it. I was once robbed by the police in 1971, so I have no illusion that the police were any better back then than they are now. The difference is that the cops that robbed me were violating the law. They knew it and I knew it. Now these guys get to be cop, judge, and jury and they are doing it lawfully or at least with the appearance of law. In my view that is a major difference.
The validity of your commentary is undeniable.

Sadly, cognitive dissonance is in evidence today exactly the same as pre 1939 Germany.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:42   #247
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
An interesting observation. It would seem to me to depend on the individuals involved. It seems to me that some individuals in those countries have been angered to the point of picking up weapons and killing people. Is that anger or despair? I think very few people in the US are are ready to start killing people, but that does not mean we are not moving towards a police state.

If you were in Iraq and Afghanistan it is not likely you remember a time in America when you had to be proven guilty in a court of law. This is something we call in the scientific world a changing baseline. For instance when I go to a coral reef in the Florida keys I see dead coral, few fish, and massive destruction because I saw it nearly 50 years ago when it was still healthy. When 20 something PhD students see the same thing they see a beautiful coral reef. Why? they have no reference point from which to judge. The coral reefs of today become their baseline. It may well be that if I had seen those coral reefs in the 1910s instead of the 1960s I might have thought they were dead or dying then. The only reference point I personally had was in the 1960s. If your reference point is 1990 then you’ll have a completely different baseline than me so it's unlikely that you'll see the deterioration, where I do. It doesn't mean that your evil or bad or even wrong, you just are judging the situation from a different baseline. You and Jammer seem to be comparing the law enforcement/Police state situation today in America with Iraq, Afghanistan, and North Korea, where I am comparing it to the United States of America 50 years ago. It is clear to me we are viewing this from completely different baseline. It's like you guys are saw coral reefs with no life left on them at all and you are now seeing the reefs in the Keys and seeing some live coral, some fish, and it looks wonderful compared to what you saw in North Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm looking at the exact same reef that I saw 50 years ago and you see now and what I see is devastation. I fear the day when your view is the same as mine.

I'm under no illusion that things were perfect back then, they weren't. In some ways the police were more out of control back then, but they were violating the law, not enforcing it. I was once robbed by the police in 1971, so I have no illusion that the police were any better back then than they are now. The difference is that the cops that robbed me were violating the law. They knew it and I knew it. Now these guys get to be cop, judge, and jury and they are doing it lawfully or at least with the appearance of law. In my view that is a major difference.
I should clarify, I was speaking of those two countries prior to the US invasion. You see, I was in Afghanistan in 2001 with the 15th MEU and Iraq in 2003 with the 2d MEF. I saw how the citizens of those countries reacted to those in uniform, any uniform: complete and utter submission. Trying to convince someone that you could be trusted to aid them in time of need was nearly impossible simply because the previous regimes abused that trust extensively. Granted, we are not a bunch of saints and made numerous mistakes over there, but as an example I thought it fitting. However Bill, I also agree with you that those conditions did not appear overnight. They most likely started out much as things are now in the US. I don't think we are YET a police state, though if measures aren't taken soon, we will be.

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Old 13-05-2014, 19:45   #248
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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I don't think we are YET a police state, though if measures aren't taken soon, we will be.
The minute they started with military training and supplying military weapons and vehicles to the police...... it evidenced the intent.

It is.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:51   #249
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Gee I love Australia. We may have our own problems but the courts are for the people.

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Well, to be fair, we don't all share the views expressed of our courts as many of us have never had a bad court experience. I got a ticket I didn't feel I merited when I was in college, one Sunday morning. I went to court with no attorney, plead not guilty, and was found not guilty. I think the court systems are generally quite fair. Of course the loser in the case never agrees with that so 50% of the people on a given day agree and 50% disagree. The policeman who ticketed me thought the ruling was wrong.
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Old 13-05-2014, 19:55   #250
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
The minute they started with military training and supplying military weapons and vehicles to the police...... it evidenced the intent.

It is.
I agree, the intent is there. And the country is on its way to being one. I just feel that there is still time to reverse course. Hence we are not yet a police state. But neither are we free. We're in that dangerous middle ground where it could go either way.

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Old 13-05-2014, 20:02   #251
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Well, to be fair, we don't all share the views expressed of our courts as many of us have never had a bad court experience. I got a ticket I didn't feel I merited when I was in college, one Sunday morning. I went to court with no attorney, plead not guilty, and was found not guilty. I think the court systems are generally quite fair. Of course the loser in the case never agrees with that so 50% of the people on a given day agree and 50% disagree. The policeman who ticketed me thought the ruling was wrong.
When was this and in what state? To be sure, not all states have gone the administrative law route that Florida has.
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Old 13-05-2014, 21:23   #252
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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When was this and in what state? To be sure, not all states have gone the administrative law route that Florida has.
North Carolina 1992 or so.

But then there were no $90 tickets there either which the Florida approach has. Again, I'm not arguing with the experiences of others, simply stating that many of us don't share the persecuted, impossible to get justice, police state experiences and opinions. Neither my wife nor I have had what we would consider seriously negative experiences with law enforcement.

On the other hand we've had experiences involving US law enforcement agencies that we can't discuss the specifics of but that earned our respect and gratitude toward many of the people involved. We can never thank them enough for their support. This doesn't by any means negate nor justify those situations where people have been unreasonably harmed by law enforcement.

Now, I'd caution not to stretch a $90 ticket from FWC to a police state. It isn't. And as to the "police state" that is a political issue and discussion and certainly not the topic this thread was initiated over. I know to some the check by FWC may seem like part of much more. But really it's one under trained, under paid, under appreciated lower level officer and it may or may not have been poor judgement on his part. As anywhere there are people who have been terribly wronged. Persons imprisoned and thirty years later proved not guilty by new DNA tests are examples and we need to be careful not to ever equate the minor injustice we receive to theirs.

It's a bit like getting 30 cents change when you were due 40 cents and reacting as if you've just been subjected to grand larceny and were held at gunpoint and your life threatened.
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Old 13-05-2014, 22:48   #253
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Cops are experts at enforcement, not law. When someone is an expert at the law, we call them "lawyers".

I tell you this so you won't expect your plumber to re-wire your house, or consult your gardner when you get sick.

One of the things I can think of that would be a lot worse than having cops enforce the law would be having lawyers enforce the law. Makes me cringe just to think about it.

Cops get paid to go to court. Most of the cops I know prefer spending time in court to breaking up domestic disputes, or whatever else they could be called on to do.
You left out the 'law' part. Cops are supposed to be experts at 'law' enforcement. Thugs are experts at enforcement. I'm not one to read much of anything into a situation I wasn't around for but I'd like to hope most cops would want to understand what they are enforcing and why. It's more like expecting a plumber to know the building code requirements for plumbing.

If lawyers enforced the law, most of us would get away. Also a bad analogy though, lawyers are experts at applying laws out of context for the sole benefit of whoever they are representing (something cops sometimes do as well). An expert at interpreting and understanding the law from an unbiased point of view would be a Judge (in theory anyway).

You sound pretty pro law enforcement, you or your family work in the field?

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Old 14-05-2014, 01:02   #254
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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The minute they started with military training and supplying military weapons and vehicles to the police...... it evidenced the intent.
Yes, the intent is clear.

The intent is to avoid another North Hollywood shootout.

That intent has my full support.

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You sound pretty pro law enforcement, you or your family work in the field?
I'm sorry, ad-hom-what?

You're confused about what an LEO's job is, and what the qualifications are.
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Old 14-05-2014, 04:48   #255
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Re: Florida Law Enforcement ie; FWC

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It seems to me that there are boaters that have multiple negative encounters with marine enforcement officers. My guess is that these are the people with repeat offenses and great complaint claiming that the police are operating unfairly.

Other boaters have rare encounters with these same marine enforcement officers. My guess is these are the people that generally respect authority and interact with enforcement officers without threat. They rarely commit offenses and rarely receive citations.

There may be exceptions; however, most of us would agree that the laws enforced by the Florida Wildlife Commission regarding safety & the environment are valid. I won't discount that mistakes and misunderstandings may sometimes occur, but I can't respect the complaints from people who have habitual problems with law enforcement authorities.

I dont know if its habitual problems but I sure have habitual contact. My business is on my boat and I travel extensively from job to job. Usually at different marinas or coastal areas. Being that Im doing this constantly or nearso it stands to reason Im going to have more contact. In one week I was stopped by a local leo, customs and border patrol, and homeland security. All said reason for stopping was document check. Local leo could be considered harrassing. He complained because my registration sticker was abraded, because my deceased wifes name was still on the dinghy title(as well as mine) and even inquired about whos insurance was covering my work on shore.

Ive been inspected by the coast guard nearly annually, after the first one in a year the inspection report of the last boarding usually fends them off.
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