FCC and In Flight calls

[SimonV]

You could always answer the conversation. Hi it bob. Hi bob.whats te weather like there. I don't know I'm in the isle seat. Did you book the hotel. Gee I think you could tske me out for dinner first. I can't hear you there's some idiot trying to talk to me. Well hang up on him.

[chuckr]

anyone want to go into business with me a create a small jammer that works on cell phone frequencies only and very short range like a few feet - not the planes as that could cause a bit of a problem

i use to spend over 1/2 my time on the road and like above it was great getting a few hours of no phone -
now that i am old and don't give a hoot - if some one next to me started i would start talking into their phone or talking to them or being obnoxious like i didn't like that hotel to many hookers or sounds like your kid needs to go to reform school or being obnoxious or just becoming an annoying old fart - i can get pretty good at that
but then again the only time we fly now is once a year or less to go to the usa to visit the kids

[Don1500]

I thought all those people on TV were already using cell phones on the plane. You mean the writers of those shows made it up that you could actually use a cell at 30,000' and get perfect reception? Please tell me I'm wrong!/s

[bletso]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I agree with Dave, this is coming whether we like it or not. There are many people who lose out on business because they cannot make contact.

If passenger comfort were the major driving force in airline travel today things would be a lot different. Cell phones are another revenue stream for the airlines. They will do just about anything to get more revenue.

I rather doubt the first as I have lost business by phone interruption, but too true on point two. The airlines in general are most unfriendly for a commercial endeavor which depends on people to be transported.

I really don't understand people's need to be in constant contact, in many instances to a point of distraction endangering themselves, i.e. driving People may not like it but I won't answer my phone if I am otherwise engaged, but then I remember the old days when one had to search out a working phone box, so communication had to be more important than useless chatter you see all around us.

[El Rubio]

Originally Posted by Don1500

I thought all those people on TV were already using cell phones on the plane. You mean the writers of those shows made it up that you could actually use a cell at 30,000' and get perfect reception? Please tell me I'm wrong!/s

here's the problem, The cell phone companies have a small amount of radio spectrum and must reuse it. At flight altitudes, your signal is being received all over the place and at dozens of cellsites. Networks aren't designed to handle this type of access and speed of travel through them. You WILL cause harmful interference to regular users on the ground network. If your call is handled, the areas where that frequency is reused will see your signal as an increase in the noise floor. Any other users will have to have a signal stronger than that noise floor to access the network. Everybody is at full power and the problem increases. There are other issues with multiple separate networks trying to handle calls, handoffs not built for that kind of speed or altitude. All cellsites have designed neighboring cellsites that calls can be passed to and from. At 300+MPH and 5000+ft altitude, your call isn't likely to make a handoff. You can easily over shoot the designed candidate and just drop. It happens at 70MPH on the ground in some places and is almost guaranteed to happen in a plane. Without FEMTO cells or "Small Cells", this would become a wireless nightmare and reduce performance everywhere. So, there is interference, but maybe not the kind initially thought of.

[chuckr]

[QUOTE=bletso;1415194
I really don't understand people's need to be in constant contact, in many instances to a point of distraction endangering themselves, i.e. driving


having watched it from a lot of folks from ceos to neophytes - if you have to be in constant contact is affirms your importance -- i mean if you have to take that call you are an important person - and somepeople really need to feel important - they really aren't but in their minds they are -

in the later part of my career i ran a couple of major trucking companies and when i drove i did not take calls, on airplanes before take off or after landing in did not take calls or make calls - i knew that if i was needed that badly i did not do a good job as a manager to put the right people in place to make decisions --
but some people are to small to understand that - they will when they retire or lose their job

[Group9]

Originally Posted by SvenG

What I don't understand are all the hideously loud buffoons who don't realize that if they got a cellphone they wouldn't have to yell so much.


-Sven

Actually, it's because of the way cell phones are set up. On an old landline phone, you got to hear your voice back through the earpiece on the headset, which helped you modulate your voice. Cell phones don't have that, which is why people talk so loud on them.

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Group9

Actually, it's because of the way cell phones are set up. On an old landline phone, you got to hear your voice back through the earpiece on the headset, which helped you modulate your voice. Cell phones don't have that, which is why people talk so loud on them.

Ah, I learned something useful today. Thanks.

That means there should be a low-tech solution to the problem too !



-Sven

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Group9

Actually, it's because of the way cell phones are set up. On an old landline phone, you got to hear your voice back through the earpiece on the headset, which helped you modulate your voice. Cell phones don't have that, which is why people talk so loud on them.

The technical term is called "sidetone" and all cell phones have it. ( even if its recreated digitally )

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidetone

Dave

[Ukeluthier]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry so why did one of the worlds largest Airlines , Ryanair , have no problem allowing a whole plane to use mobile phones.

The interference issue is just bumfluff

Dave

Sounds like most of the bumfluff is right here. If RyanAir allowed it, it was an attempt to get a competitive advantage in the absence of public safety regulation by the Irish authorities. In unreined private enterprise, money trumps potential safety concerns every time.

I'm the retired former chief of the research branch of the FCC Laboratory and an electrical engineer with 43 years of experience in radio frequency spectrum management. Any spectrum management professional knows that ANY device that emits radio frequency energy -- whether intentionally or not -- has some potential to interfere with the proper functioning of any other electronic device, particularly digital electronics sharing the same tight environment. The degree of risk has a lot to do with how much power is emitted, the proximity in both space and frequency, and details of the design of both the emitting and victim device, but it is never zero. Worst-case spectrum management issues probably occur on modern warships, but an airliner can't be too far down the list. Good design of both the emitting device and the victim systems can mitigate the risk.

The recent developments at the FCC indicate to me that the designs of both cellphones and aircraft systems have now been refined to the point where most experts concur that the risk of serious interference is insignificant. The nuisance factor of onboard cellphone use is another matter entirely.

RF interference is not bumfluff. I distinctly recall one particular case that the FCC field people had to investigate about 25 years ago in which a passenger ferry rammed the dock in Washington state injuring a number of people because the automated docking system was interfered with by a vending machine on board -- a freakin' vending machine, for crissakes!

[transmitterdan]

Aircraft systems are much improved these days. Some of that is because military aircraft must be immune to intentionally created RF radiation. Military aircraft are tested at RF levels thousands to millions of times higher than any civilian aircraft will ever see. Lessons from this have helped improve commercial aviation immensely. Cell phones have not been a threat to modern air carriers for many years.

There is an attention deficit safety issue that remains. Someone talking on a phone or listening to music cannot hear and comprehend safety instructions. The FAA and similar bodies in many countries will have to address that. I don't want to die because some self important person in front of me can't be bothered to listen to the evacuation instructions. Some carriers are already trying various solutions for that but it would be nice if the rules didn't vary from carrier to carrier.

[Sea Frog]

I wonder why nobody is suggesting earplugs. Even cheap yellow EAR brand plugs from 3M that you can buy in any pharmacy does a wonderful job of cutting off the noice. Wanna something better? Get custom plugs made just for your ears.

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Sea Frog

I wonder why nobody is suggesting earplugs. Even cheap yellow EAR brand plugs from 3M that you can buy in any pharmacy does a wonderful job of cutting off the noice. Wanna something better? Get custom plugs made just for your ears.

So you won't be able to talk with your SO in the seat next to you because some slob needs to scream into his/her importance-phone ?



-Sven

[Group9]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The technical term is called "sidetone" and all cell phones have it. ( even if its recreated digitally )

see Sidetone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dave

Yeah, but it's not the same (I know from tapping phones as part of my job). It was impossible to have a bad tap and only get one side of a land line. It frequently happens to us with cell phones because of the different way they are set up. The cell phone company will tell us we are hooked up, but we only get one side of the call and have to call them back and tell them to do it again.


I admit I don't know all of the science behind it, I just know they are wired completely differently (and part of it is the analog vs. digital thing).

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Group9

Yeah, but it's not the same (I know from tapping phones as part of my job). It was impossible to have a bad tap and only get one side of a land line.

Now I finally know why my childhood telephone time-delay prank never worked

I took what should have been the mike wires and ran them through a tape-recorder to introduce a few second delay, hoping that what one speaker said would not be heard by the other party until after the delay, resulting in lots of hilarity. I could never get rid of the instant voice transmission even if I managed to get the echo too.

It was a lot of work rewiring it so it would not be visible to the handset user ... stupid phone ! So I finally gave up.



-Sven