Electric Car Economics

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Using a Thorium rather than Uranium fuel cycle gives us essentially unlimited fuel. Waste products are less of a problem than Uranium too. That said, we haven't even dealt with the waste we have now, so ramping up production would exacerbate an already large and unfunded problem.

Nuclear waste needs to be handled better. Identification of the permanent repository in the U.S. is more than 20 years behind schedule, and there are too many incidents with temporarily stored waste. I guess this is the biggest problem with nuclear power at the moment.


Finland is leading the way having started physical construction of the world's first permanent repository in Onkalo next to the Olkiluto nuclear power plant on the Gulf of Bothnia, where incidentally the first operational European Pressusized Water Reactor, Europe's first Generation 3 nuclear power plant, is under construction. The repository uses the Swedish KBS-3 method of permanent storage. It will hold 100 years worth of waste.



The facility is being built with the full support of the local population, who were extensively consulted in the process of designing the facility and who were, uniquely, given veto power over the scheme up until final permitting. Here too Finland shows the way to the rest of us, with a consultative process which greatly mitigates the NIMBY problem.



Finland has a law prohibiting the disposal of nuclear waste produced in Finland, outside of Finland. The Finnish standards for waste storage are 25 times more stringent than the ones in the U.S. Finland already today is nearly 90% carbon-free power and will increase nuclear power up to 60% of all power in the next years. This, people, is how it's done in a nation which is serious about achieving practical solutions to big problems.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/s...e-finland.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo...uel_repository




The Swedes are not far behind the Finns. They have identified a site, near Osthammer, and expect to start construction in the next couple of years.


Osthammer was chosen from two Swedish communities which desired to host the facility, and a consultative process with the local communities was used much like what the Finns did for Onkalo. A broad consensus of local opinion -- 80% in favor -- supports the project.


https://www.skb.com/news/continued-b...ulation-plant/

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Nuclear doesn't have the carbon emissions issue, but like fossil fuels it is finite and won't last forever. Maybe 200 years?

Depends on what you mean by "nuclear" and what sources you read
But a lot more than 200 years according to the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency, and I suspect that they have a good grasp of the numbers.




https://www.oecd-nea.org/nea-news/20..._resources.pdf

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by StuM

Depends on what you mean by "nuclear" and what sources you read
But a lot more than 200 years according to the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency, and I suspect that they have a good grasp of the numbers.

I certainly hope that's the case, but there are a lot of "if"s in those projections. 200 years is the pessimistic low end.

[DeepFrz]

"But pumped water storage works really well and really does mostly solve the intermittent power issue, at least in combination with great base load generation which you get from the likes of nuclear. You don't need to have it right in the city you're trying to serve -- that's why we have electrical power grids "

Pumped water storage is called "firming and shaping" of wind energy in Manitoba.

Because wind is intermittent, it must be firmed and shaped so it can be supplied to customers when they need it. Manitoba Hydro has good firming and shaping capabilities. When the wind is blowing, water can be stored in reservoirs. When the wind is calm, water is released to generate power at the dam site ensuring that customers get firm power on demand. In addition, our wind regime is most productive in the winter months when our peak demand for power occurs. In Canada, Manitoba has very good access to transmission lines so we can move the energy effectively and we have an enthusiastic rural population that embraces wind development. So, overall Manitoba is well positioned to become a leader in wind generation.

[RaymondR]

Scandinavian Nuclear.

Massive centralized power stations suited to geographically limited populations in countries driven to readily available and reliable power because they will freeze their butts off if they don't get a consensus.

The problem with pressurized water reactors is that you have to keep them pressurized 100% of the time without fail. Since you are dealing with a couple of thousand pounds per square inch this can be problematic. The three big ones so far, Three Mile Island, Chernoble, Fukashima all had problems with pressurized water.

Waste Disposal.

All the problems with this are political. We have had the technology to solve this one for decades.

Two of the reasons I like the idea of the LFTR reactors is they operate with the real nasties at atmospheric pressure and they massively reduce the waste problem whilst also reducing the proliferation problem.

One of the tragedies of the nuclear age is that the US developed the LFTR technology many decades ago however the military industrial complex was successful in having it's greatest exponent fired from his position and the technology shelved.

[Lake-Effect]

attempting to relocate this from the "inboard engines" thread...

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Three yr old Leaf’s can be had for $10K or less.
https://www.carfax.com/Used-Nissan-Leaf_w536
Pretty cheap for a three yr old car

New a Leaf sells for between $30K and $36K I believe, so in three years it’s worth a third of its new price?

There's a bunch of things possibly going on here:

• Risks of early adoption - it's likely that some owners have decided that the car's just not working for them: range, charging hassle, not liking the 'eco' stigma, jealous of others enjoying more luxe gas-powered vehicles for the same money and gas is still cheap.
• Ownership problems? i have not followed the Leaf closely.
• Nissan US is not solidly behind it. You mentioned already how they botched the launch. Compare to Tesla - a whole lot more support and presence there.
• People are unsure of the lifetime costs of ownership. Perhaps the costs around scheduled battery replacement are concerning.

I think I have read that for someone who only does typical urban trips and could charge at home, used Leafs (Leaves?) are a bargoon.

The first Priuses (Priuii?) had a look and stigma that many disliked. Toyota now has a hybrid Corolla that looks more 'normal'. I know that the taxi drivers around here jumped on hybrids and love them.

[a64pilot]

Plural was decided to be Prii ,but it was a long running argument.

I think many jumped on the bandwagon to be seen as popular or whatever, just like pretty much anyone, who was anyone in Hollywood had a Prius in 07 or so.
But the shortcomings of an electric wasn’t considered and the adoration wasn’t forthcoming either, and I can assure you there are idiots out there that like to make fun, makes them feel more manly or something.

So there have been many that I’d suspect just can’t do without their SUV, it’s been a few years but people at gatherings would all extol the virtues of an SUV to each other, how they felt safer, liked sitting up high etc. That crowd is the largest group and turns their nose up at Hybrids and I’m sure electrics.
I remember one Woman who totally out of the blue told my wife as she was getting out of the Miata, “Well I guess it’s sort of cute, but I couldn’t live without my Suburban”, and that was back in 89.

The Tesla is different not because it’s better or has better service or customer support, if you read the article about the fleet racking up the miles in California two things stuck out to me, first eight battery replacements and a long time before a windshield could be replaced.

The Tesla is a status symbol exactly like a Rolex watch, a Rolex isn’t as good of a watch as a Timex, the Timex actually is better at keeping time, but the Rolex costs a fortune and has very strong re-sale value, mine is worth many times what it originally cost, but sits in a fire proof safe, so what good is it?

But yes taxi service is where you would think Hybrids and electrics would quickly have taken over, and initially they did, Toyota fielded a fleet of taxis somewhere in Canada back years ago to get durability data. Cold weather is especially tough on a hybrid cause the engine is often not running and keeping it and the car interior warm is an issue.
Many put pool noodles in their grills to completely block off air flow into the engine compt for example.
But gas dropped in price I guess to a point that the smaller size and higher price of say a Prius made it less attractive than say a mini van. A Mini van has a lot going for it as a Taxi.
I believe this led to Toyota fielding or maybe just supporting a fleet of Taxi’s to gain data.
https://driving.ca/toyota/prius/auto...blazing-cabbie

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Plural was decided to be Prii ,but it was a long running argument.

I think many jumped on the bandwagon to be seen as popular or whatever, just like pretty much anyone, who was anyone in Hollywood had a Prius in 07 or so.
But the shortcomings of an electric wasn’t considered and the adoration wasn’t forthcoming either, and I can assure you there are idiots out there that like to make fun, makes them feel more manly or something.

The Tesla is different not because it’s better or has better service or customer support, if you read the article about the fleet racking up the miles in California two things stuck out to me, first eight battery replacements and a long time before a windshield could be replaced.

The Tesla is a status symbol exactly like a Rolex watch, a Rolex isn’t as good of a watch as a Timex, the Times actually is better at keeping time, bu the Rolex costs a fortune and has very strong re-sale value, mine is worth many times want it costs, but sits in a fire proof safe, so what good is it?

This is why I've mentioned marketing a few times. A BRAND is powerful. If you have a strong brand, and it has some fundamentals like great design, you can push past many legitimate objections - price, TCO, reliability.

As I understand it, Teslas do have a street reputation for being better and with strong support. Maybe that's just perception, but it counts.

Same with trucks and SUVs - many people aren't buying them because they actually need the capacity or power, they are buying them to be truck/SUV owners - strong, bold, dependable, capable, like the ads tell them. It doesn't matter to them that the things are more expensive to buy and fix, are LESS safe than most cars, harder to park. ...Marketing.

[edit - missed your update]

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

This is why I've mentioned marketing a few times. A BRAND is powerful. If you have a strong brand, and it has some fundamentals like great design, you can push past many legitimate objections - price, TCO, reliability.

Oh, I have attended meetings with marketing experts on brand building, and their go to example is Harley Davidson or was anyway.
In actuality a poor product, but what other product do people stand in line to have tattooed on their bodies?
But put anything Apple in there too.

The Tesla sales offices are posh with upscale dressed sales people that I’m sure carry some other title, cause sales sounds so middle class.
Years ago I went into a Harley dealership, first it looked like a bank, and the next thing I noticed was all the Harley clothing and jewelry etc for sale, a complete difference from what it used to be in the late 70’s.
Through Marketing where Harley’s used to only be ridden by the great unwashed masses, they were now bought by Accountants and bank executives.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

The first Priuses (Priuii?) had a look and stigma that many disliked.

Not Priuii. But you can take your pick of a few alternatives.



Toyota initially went with the latin pluralisation rule of "ius -> ii" - Prii (pree eye)

If you stick with the latin roots of the actual word - Priora
If you stick with english pluralisation rules - Priuses

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

attempting to relocate this from the "inboard engines" thread...



There's a bunch of things possibly going on here:

• Risks of early adoption - it's likely that some owners have decided that the car's just not working for them: range, charging hassle, not liking the 'eco' stigma, jealous of others enjoying more luxe gas-powered vehicles for the same money and gas is still cheap.
• Ownership problems? i have not followed the Leaf closely.
• Nissan US is not solidly behind it. You mentioned already how they botched the launch. Compare to Tesla - a whole lot more support and presence there.
• People are unsure of the lifetime costs of ownership. Perhaps the costs around scheduled battery replacement are concerning.

I think I have read that for someone who only does typical urban trips and could charge at home, used Leafs (Leaves?) are a bargoon.

The first Priuses (Priuii?) had a look and stigma that many disliked. Toyota now has a hybrid Corolla that looks more 'normal'. I know that the taxi drivers around here jumped on hybrids and love them.

Perhaps coming off 3 year lease?

First Tesla Supercharger has just been installed in Winnipeg. PetroCan and Tesla are filling in the holes in high speed charging installations on the Trans Canada Hwy. New installations across northern Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan connecting up to previous networks in Alberta/BC and Ontario/Quebec. New sites also being installed south in ND closing that hole. Nice to see.

[GordMay]

Harley-Davidson is hoping to become known for something other than its rumbling hogs.
“Livewire”, an all-electric motorcycle that hums rather than roars.
Harley-Davidson is the first major manufacturer to offer electric motorcycles at dealerships.
Only 1,800 have been built this year, with the sticker price around $37,000. The company says the Livewire can do 0-60 km/h in three seconds and has a battery range of 235 kilometres of city driving.
Apparently, Harley-Davidson is developing other electric motorcycles, in addition to the Livewire.
➥ https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/e.../livewire.html

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Oh, I have attended meetings with marketing experts on brand building, and their go to example is Harley Davidson or was anyway.
In actuality a poor product, but what other product do people stand in line to have tattooed on their bodies? ....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Harley-Davidson is hoping to become known for something other than its rumbling hogs.
“Livewire”, an all-electric motorcycle that hums rather than roars.
Harley-Davidson is the first major manufacturer to offer electric motorcycles at dealerships.
Only 1,800 have been built this year, with the sticker price around $37,000. The company says the Livewire can do 0-60 km/h in three seconds and has a battery range of 235 kilometres of city driving.
Apparently, Harley-Davidson is developing other electric motorcycles, in addition to the Livewire.
➥ https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/e.../livewire.html

Hey, I've got a great marketing idea for Harley Davidson -- why don't they call it the Electra Glide?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Harley-Davidson is hoping to become known for something other than its rumbling hogs.
“Livewire”, an all-electric motorcycle that hums rather than roars.
Harley-Davidson is the first major manufacturer to offer electric motorcycles at dealerships.
Only 1,800 have been built this year, with the sticker price around $37,000. The company says the Livewire can do 0-60 km/h in three seconds and has a battery range of 235 kilometres of city driving.
Apparently, Harley-Davidson is developing other electric motorcycles, in addition to the Livewire.
➥ https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/e.../livewire.html

The end of Harley is coming.
The user base is aging and not being replaced by younger riders. This is affecting all motorcycle manufacturers, but HD is priced at the top of the market.

Very few are going to pay 37k for an electric HD.

HD has done well because the models don't change. They are the Rolex of bikes. Same model for decades with minimal changes. It holds up the resell value of the older bikes which helps sell newer bikes. Obviously clothing is super important to their bottom line.

I once had a chat with Willie G Davidson. He's the brains behind the small subtle changes between years. Or he was in charge of that at the time (around 2000).

As far as electric cars, I'm getting closer and closer to buying one but the use case just doesn't fit my needs yet.

[a64pilot]

The Harley is the perfect example of brand power and marketing and proves just how strong social pressures are on what people want to buy.
People don’t want to buy what they want, they want to buy what makes them look successful and other people envious.

One of the better South Park episodes
https://vimeo.com/15758959