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mottseng · 18-03-2014, 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Well duh. Has anyone claimed to know exactly what any animal is thinking? No. Nonetheless, it is still possible for them to demonstrate cognitive reasoning abilities. That has nothing to do with knowing "exactly what they are thinking."

Give me an example of an animal demonstrating cognitive reasoning ability?

mausgras · 18-03-2014, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDabs

Dolphins have sex for pleasure...

I would call that good reasoning.

Dolphins are also guilty of pack rape (of other dolphins of course. )

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denverd0n · 18-03-2014, 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mottseng

Is it funny or sad that I ask that you substantiate your statement with evidence.

It's both, considering that you have yet to substantiate a single one of your statements. You just say ridiculous things and expect everyone else to accept them on blind faith (as you appear to have done).

If you were REALLY open to scientific evidence and being proven wrong (as you very clearly are not) then you would spend 30 seconds on google, educate yourself a little bit, and acknowledge that the ability to reason exists outside of humans.

That's what makes your comments both sad, and funny. Paraphrasing the dolphins from "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy," so long and thanks for all the laughs.

Now please feel free to have the last word, as I intend to take Mark Twain's advice on this matter.

mottseng · 18-03-2014, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

It's both, considering that you have yet to substantiate a single one of your statements. You just say ridiculous things and expect everyone else to accept them on blind faith (as you appear to have done).

If you were REALLY open to scientific evidence and being proven wrong (as you very clearly are not) then you would spend 30 seconds on google, educate yourself a little bit, and acknowledge that the ability to reason exists outside of humans.

That's what makes your comments both sad, and funny. Paraphrasing the dolphins from "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy," so long and thanks for all the laughs.

Now please feel free to have the last word, as I intend to take Mark Twain's advice on this matter.

Re-read your post and look in the mirror. You have not substantiated any of your claims and google is not a substantial authority. I reason that you are unreasonable. As stated in an earlier post of mine we can agree to disagree. Move on !!!!

robert sailor · 18-03-2014, 10:21

Blind Faith is a term usually associated with people who believe in sky Gods.

I love animals as much as anyone and some of them are sure bright. Dolphins are certainly some of the smarter animals we have. Do you think they would beach themselves even after being saved and pointed out to sea if they could reason? Why wouldn't gophers just stay down in their hole when they see their fellow gophers being shot by the farmer? Why does your dog great you with the same enthusiasm whether you leave your home for 2 days or 10 minutes?I could go on all night, science has been doing some serious studies on them and to my knowledge there has been no reputable scientist that believes animals can reason.

Tantalus · 18-03-2014, 10:48

Okay, this may or may not be reasoning/problem solving. But it comes pretty darned close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ym0rxisOpw

Prairie Chicken · 18-03-2014, 12:02

Tantalus ... that's awesome!

theaton · 18-03-2014, 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Blind Faith is a term usually associated with people who believe in sky Gods.

I love animals as much as anyone and some of them are sure bright. Dolphins are certainly some of the smarter animals we have. Do you think they would beach themselves even after being saved and pointed out to sea if they could reason? Why wouldn't gophers just stay down in their hole when they see their fellow gophers being shot by the farmer? Why does your dog great you with the same enthusiasm whether you leave your home for 2 days or 10 minutes?I could go on all night, science has been doing some serious studies on them and to my knowledge there has been no reputable scientist that believes animals can reason.

Who knows why dolphins beach and re-beach themselves? That is not evidence of not being able to reason. Humans kill themselves and do other strange stuff regularly. Does that mean humans can't reason? Of course not. There are many reasons for suicide and other unreasonable behavior even among reasonable creatures.

I have three dogs. Two of them greet me, as you say, whether I've been gone 2 days or 10 minutes. However, one of the dogs greets me differently depending on the amount of time I've been gone. I've had dogs all my life but I've never had a dog like this one.

robert sailor · 18-03-2014, 12:24

Your third dog doesn't like you, LOL.
Seriously Dolphins live in pods (families) and I have yet to see a family commit mass suicide without being in some religious cult. Fortunately dolphins don't believe in religion so that takes out about the only reason I could imagine plus its not uncommon for them. They are cute/bright and they are wonderful to see at sea but they don't reason.

mottseng · 18-03-2014, 12:25

A criteria for having the ability to reason is knowing right from wrong, good from bad and the ability to reason through argument and make behaviour changes as a result.

I am unaware of any animal, dog or dolphin doing this.

Aussiesuede · 18-03-2014, 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mottseng

Give me an example of an animal demonstrating cognitive reasoning ability?

.....

Quote:

Systematic study of self-consciousness and theory of mind in nonhuman animals has roots in an approach to the study of self-consciousness pioneered by Gallup (1970). The idea for the experiment came from observations well-known to comparative psychologists that chimpanzees would, after a period of adjustment, use mirrors to inspect their own images. Gallup used these observations to develop a widely-replicated protocol that appears to allow a scientific determination of whether it is merely the mirror image per se that is the object of interest to the animal inspecting it, or whether it is the image qua proxy for the animal itself that is the object of interest. Taking chimpanzees who had extensive prior familiarity with mirrors, Gallup anesthetized his subjects and marked their foreheads with a distinctive dye. Upon waking, marked animals who were allowed to see themselves in a mirror touched their own foreheads in the region of the mark significantly more frequently than controls who were either unmarked or not allowed to look into a mirror.

**Coops** · 18-03-2014, 13:36

Guarantee that will not be good enough for him.

Coops.

SmartMove · 18-03-2014, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Your third dog doesn't like you, LOL.
Seriously Dolphins live in pods (families) and I have yet to see a family commit mass suicide without being in some religious cult. Fortunately dolphins don't believe in religion so that takes out about the only reason I could imagine plus its not uncommon for them. They are cute/bright and they are wonderful to see at sea but they don't reason.

How do you know for sure they don't believe in religion?

Until you can communicate with them you do not know this for certain.