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Old 20-03-2014, 09:33   #136
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Originally Posted by mottseng View Post
I for one am on the side of animals not having the same reasoning ability as humans and never will.

Oh, for Pete's sake, Mottseng! Nobody in this discussion ever said animals have the SAME reasoning ability as humans. Stop putting ridiculous words into our mouths to help you make your argument.

Most folks here have simply asserted that the more intelligent species have some ability to reason.

If you are going to frame the argument in terms that distort the content of the discussion so far, no number of cited references is going to help you a bit.
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Old 20-03-2014, 09:33   #137
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

What, Just that little bit is all you found.

Really most of your references seem more of a philosophical nature, and not actual studies on Cetaceans.

There is no question that animals lack the physical ability of generate speech, just as a new born humans are incapable of speech due to physical limitations. But if linguistic ability was the only criteria of reasoning then, how does one explain people such has Helen Keller, who was quite famous for lacking linguistic ability and overcoming it. Dr. Hawkings lost his linguistic ability, yet I expect he reasons at a higher level then 99.999% of other humans.

There is no question that Dolphins can not communicate verbally with humans. Though mainly as humans and Dolphins communicate using competely different methods. Again due to the physical nature of each animal. But like Helen Keller, some have been taught to understand sign language and to form sentences in meaningful and complex fashion.

So if Helen Keller was a reasoning person, and there can be no question there, we can assume that a lack of human linguistic ability is not in and of it's self a barrier to reasoning and comprehension. It may be different reasoning then Human, but still reasoning.

Its true that the brain structure of dolphins does not match human structure. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. No I don't expect dolphins are worried about paying the cable bill, and they may or may not have their own unified field theory. I wonder if Dolphins ponder if humans can reason, since humans cannot produce nor hear sounds in the dolphin range.

Oddy many Cetaceans, get bored in captivity and will after some time (60+ times) giving the correct answer, start giving consistently wrong answers to questions during cognitive testing. But playing music would bring them out of their depression and they would continue.

I would say that boredom would be a trait of a complex mind.
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Old 20-03-2014, 09:48   #138
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

From mottseng posting: Consequently, if acts of courage, fidelity, loyalty, and parental commitment involve desire-independent reasons for action, as they arguably do, then on Searle’s argument here, no animal is or can be courageous, faithful, loyal, or a committed parent.

Anyone with a dog, would disagree with the above statement. The above by Mr. Searle is just outright dribble. But that's only based on my understanding.
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Old 20-03-2014, 09:52   #139
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Fun discussion of unreasonable reasoning.

Despite the banality I reason this discussion to be above the reasoning of dolphins and dolphins too intelligent to engage in such nonsense.
I also noticed that dolphins were smarter than people who got slimed with exploding whale guts.
No dolphins were seen anywhere near that event !
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Old 20-03-2014, 10:19   #140
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Finally, John Searle (1994) has argued that since animals lack certain linguistic abilities
This false assumption invalidates Searle's points. Just because we can't understand the language of dolphins and other animals doesn't mean they lack linguistic abilities.
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Old 20-03-2014, 10:57   #141
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Oh, for Pete's sake, Mottseng! Nobody in this discussion ever said animals have the SAME reasoning ability as humans. Stop putting ridiculous words into our mouths to help you make your argument.

Most folks here have simply asserted that the more intelligent species have some ability to reason.

If you are going to frame the argument in terms that distort the content of the discussion so far, no number of cited references is going to help you a bit.

Sorry, let me re-phrase that......I do not believe animals can reason.
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Old 20-03-2014, 11:35   #142
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

There is a word in internet slang for a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
(With thanks to Wiki for providing the definition.)
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Old 20-03-2014, 13:43   #143
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Sorry, let me re-phrase that......I do not believe animals can reason.
You do realise that homo sapiens are part of the animal kingdom and share 98 percent of our dna with other apes. Though I will admit some members on the animal kingdom have a hard time with the concept of reason.
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Old 20-03-2014, 14:00   #144
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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There is a word in internet slang for a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
(With thanks to Wiki for providing the definition.)
I would say that would be the trait of a simple mind. A complex mind would soon get bored with it. Perhaps that is why there are no dolphins on the internet. What's that? ''squeak, eek.'' Sorry Dolly, we best not say that on here.

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Old 20-03-2014, 14:00   #145
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
There is a word in internet slang for a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
(With thanks to Wiki for providing the definition.)
There is no argument here just another opinion and viewpoint. If you are experiencing the feeling of being upset I have no control over that and it is your problem. Have you not noticed that this thread is in the "off topic" section. Again if readers are experiencing some emotional feelings too bad. Again this is a Off Topic discussion.

You must be referring to someone else.

Kind regards
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Old 20-03-2014, 14:02   #146
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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You do realise that homo sapiens are part of the animal kingdom and share 98 percent of our dna with other apes. Though I will admit some members on the animal kingdom have a hard time with the concept of reason.
That 2% is a huge difference between us and apes.
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Old 20-03-2014, 14:37   #147
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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That 2% is a huge difference between us and apes.
To who's advantage? Theirs or ours?

Aside from Chimps, who seem to exacerbate all of the negative traits we find in human society (gratuitous killing, rape, etc.), I don't see any other apes doing to each other what we've been doing to each other forever.

Bonobos, for instance, most often settle their arguments by making love, not war. Think about it.

Jacques
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Old 20-03-2014, 15:06   #148
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

Some of the opinions expressed lead back to earlier assumptions of mans superiority over the animal kingdom. Many of those assumptions are being rethought as research shows much more complex emotional lives in higher Order members of the animal kingdom including dogs and dolphins I won't even get into primates.
I figure my last dog a border collie mix was about at the same level my 3 year old is now and just as much a ball buster as my son. Both have big personalities.
Cool video. Keep them coming.
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Old 20-03-2014, 15:15   #149
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

Anyone remember the TV series Flipper?

It was for entertainment and was not a documentary.

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Old 20-03-2014, 15:36   #150
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

I knew that, because there is no way one dolphin could train all those people to do stuff like that.

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