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Old 17-10-2007, 06:01   #61
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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Oh and the planet is billions of years old, not thousands or even millions. Mammals have been around about 65 million of those years. We are but a spec in the timeline of Earth.
i say prove it!!, as someone who did a bsc i saw enough evidence of carbon dating and other methods to know that they are completely unreliable, personally its a faith based thing to believe the planet is hundreds of millions, millions or even thousands of years as its impossible so far to go back in time to prove anything,
so live your life and when you die you will either die, meet god or one of a hundred other things people reckon can happen
sean
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Old 17-10-2007, 07:04   #62
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I hope this thread continues. It has more relevent comments, conjecture and "Facts" than all the News I have sceen / heard on this subject. Thanks all
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Old 17-10-2007, 12:57   #63
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i say prove it!!, as someone who did a bsc i saw enough evidence of carbon dating and other methods to know that they are completely unreliable,
sean
Radiometric dating is the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of radioactive parent isotopes (within the rock) to itís stable daughter elements.

There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them.

Naturally-occurring radioactive materials (parent isotopes) break down into other materials (stable daughter elements) at known rates. This is known as radioactive decay. This rate of decay is constant for a given isotope, and the time it takes for one-half of a particular isotope to decay is its radioactive half-life.

For example, about 1.5 percent of a quantity of Uranium 238 will decay to lead every 100 million years. By measuring the ratio of lead to uranium in a rock sample, its age can be determined.

The most compelling argument for an age of the earth of about 4.5 billion years, are the large number of independent tests that have been used to confirm this date. These tests have been performed on what are thought to be the earth's oldest surviving rocks, meteorites, and moon rocks. These tests have consistently given the same ages for each of these objects.
The oldest (4.03 Ga) rocks on Earth found so far are the Acasta Gneisses in northwestern Canada, near Great Slave Lake

Carbon-14 dating (carbon 14 - to- carbon 12 ratio) is a way of determining the age of certain artifacts of a biological origin up to about 50 - 60,000 years old. It is used in dating things such as bone, cloth, wood and plant fibers that were created in the relatively recent past by human activities.

Unfortunately, those who would deny the science of climate change don't need to win the argument.
They must only convince people that that isan argument - that the issue is undecided.

Although we should all be somewhat sceptical, that doesnít require accepting the increasingly loony counterclaims of so called "climate-change scepticsĒ.
The denial of scientific evidence is a pretty strong force in modern society, and it has implications beyond just global warming. Science is a careful and deliberative process, not a popularity contest, and is not something that can be changed simply because people say that they donít believe in it (unlike more nebulous concepts like freedom and democracy).
Science is not even something to be believed in, because belief implies that something isnít susceptible to immediate proof or scrutiny; whereas science is all about proof and scrutiny.

If 2,500 of the most prominent climate scientists in the world say one thing, and half-a-dozen ideologues, economists, and industry-funded hacks say something else - that's not an argument, it's a farce.

Unfortunately, in this case, the implications of this politicization* of science could be particularly deleterious to the public interest (preserving life, as we know & love it, on earth)..

* Ideological, philosophical, political, economic & religious beliefs driving public opinion & policy, in the face of both established fact and dire need.
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Old 17-10-2007, 13:06   #64
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If you want to experience climate change in your life, move somewhere different
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Old 17-10-2007, 18:16   #65
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If 2,500 of the most prominent climate scientists in the world say one thing, and half-a-dozen ideologues, economists, and industry-funded hacks say something else - that's not an argument, it's a farce.
So Gord...what you are saying is that you believe the weather man????
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Old 17-10-2007, 18:18   #66
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SUV's On Jupiter?


Are humans responsible for climate change on the outer reaches of the solar system, or is it the sun?
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Thursday, November 16, 2006
Kofi Annan today slammed global warming skeptics as being "out of step" and "out of time," but how will altering human activity halt climate change when the evidence clearly indicates that the sun itself and not SUV's is heating up the entire solar system?
"The U.N. chief lamented "a frightening lack of leadership" in fashioning next steps to reduce global emissions. "Let us start being more politically courageous," he urged the hundreds of delegates from some 180 member nations of the 1992 U.N. climate treaty," reports Forbes.
But how do we square the fact that almost every planet in our solar system is simultaneously undergoing temperature change and volatile weather patterns. Does this not suggest that global warming is a natural cycle as a result of the evolving nature of the sun? Can Al Gore fill me in on this one?
- Space.com: Global Warming on Pluto Puzzles Scientists
In what is largely a reversal of an August announcement, astronomers today said Pluto is undergoing global warming in its thin atmosphere even as it moves farther from the Sun on its long, odd-shaped orbit.
- Space.com: New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change
The latest images could provide evidence that Jupiter is in the midst of a global change that can modify temperatures by as much as 10 degrees Fahrenheit on different parts of the globe.
- Current Science & Technology Center: Global Warming on Mars?
A study of the ice caps on Mars may show that the red planet is experiencing a warming trend. If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change.
- United Press International: NASA looks at a monster storm on Saturn
NASA says its Cassini spacecraft has found a hurricane-like storm at Saturn's South Pole, nearly 5,000 miles across -- or two-thirds Earth's diameter.
- Science Agogo: Global Warming Detected on Triton
There may not be much industrial pollution on Neptune's largest moon, but things are hotting up nonetheless. "At least since 1989, Triton has been undergoing a period of global warming," confirms astronomer James Elliot, professor of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Percentage-wise, it's a very large increase."
- Associated Press: Study says sun getting hotter
Solar radiation reaching the Earth is 0.036 percent warmer than it was in 1986, when the current solar cycle was beginning, a researcher reports in a study to be published Friday in the journal Science. The finding is based on an analysis of satellites that measure the temperature of sunlight.
- London Telegraph: The truth about global warming - it's the Sun that's to blame
Global warming has finally been explained: the Earth is getting hotter because the Sun is burning more brightly than at any time during the past 1,000 years, according to new research.
The simple fact is that throughout the ages the earth has swung wildly between a warm, wet, stable climate, to a cold, dry and windy one - long before the first fossil fuel was burned. The changes we are now witnessing are a walk in the park compared to the battering that our planet has taken in the past.
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Old 17-10-2007, 19:03   #67
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If 2,500 of the most prominent climate scientists in the world say one thing, and half-a-dozen ideologues, economists, and industry-funded hacks say something else - that's not an argument, it's a farce.


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So Gord...what you are saying is that you believe the weather man????
And Gord deleted a post of mine because it was 'Political'...



grrr....
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Old 17-10-2007, 19:07   #68
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planetoftheapes,

Is this the farce group above, that GordMay had posted about??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
If 2,500 of the most prominent climate scientists in the world say one thing, and half-a-dozen ideologues, economists, and industry-funded hacks say something else - that's not an argument, it's a farce.
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Old 17-10-2007, 19:24   #69
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I feel it is important to understand that dramatic climate change has been continuous and the rule through Earth's history, long before man's arrival.

When some group tells you the answer to a problem is more regulation and taxes, a wise man should be suspicious.
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Old 17-10-2007, 20:23   #70
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There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them.

but all of these tests assume that c14 or the other isotopes behave the same way back then as they do now, im just saying you have to have as much faith to believe that a test that says somethign is x years old as you do to believe in flying spaghetti monsters as neither id idrectly provable, the only valid scientific proofs are those you can test and observe now(till you invent the time macjine that is)



i dont have issues with the fact that the planet seems to be getting warmer just with our supposed taxes and methods of dealing with it
sean
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Old 17-10-2007, 20:33   #71
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I feel it is important to understand that dramatic climate change has been continuous and the rule through Earth's history, long before man's arrival.

When some group tells you the answer to a problem is more regulation and taxes, a wise man should be suspicious.
Maybe the Earth itself is self preserving.

If a species threatens it or pisses it off the Earth shakes it's wooly coat not unlike our canine friends and the offending species disappears.
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Old 17-10-2007, 23:03   #72
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So Gord...what you are saying is that you believe the weather man????
Weather prediction is not science. It is akin to betting on rain drops sliding down the window pane, as in which ones will reach the bottom first.
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Old 17-10-2007, 23:18   #73
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I wonder if the same scientists are being used in the climate change argument are the ones that said the world as we know it was going to end at midnight on New Years eve 1999, and boy did alot of people make money out of that Farce
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Old 18-10-2007, 03:50   #74
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James Ussher has proven conclusively that the world began on October 26th, 4004 B.C. People can bury their heads in the sand and ignore that fact, but that does not make it incorrect. Evolution, as a result, can not possibly have happened. Anyone who says different obviously has very nefarious intent, and probably believes their great-great grandfather was a chimpanzee who did not know how to use toilet-paper.
About a decade earlier (than Bisgop Ussher*1) Dr. John Lightfoot estimated that creation occurred during 4004 BCE (October 23 @ precisely 9:00AM*2).

*1. I’m not certain whether that was Greenwich(GMT) or Jerusalem time

*2. Ussher calculated this timing in his “Annals, a work of biblical chronology” ("Annales veteris testamenti, a prima mundi origine deducti") which he published in Latin in 1650, and which was translated into English in 1658.

He also calculated that Adam and Eve were driven from Paradise on Monday 10 November 4004 BC, and that the Ark touched down on Mt. Ararat on 5 May 2348 BC `on a Wednesday'.


***

The hypothesis that a brightening sun is causing global warming falls apart when you consider solar output hasn't risen over the past 30 years.

Recent oppositely directed trends in solar climate forcings and the global mean surface air temperature ~ by MIKE LOCKWOOD AND CLAUS FROHLICH

Writing in the “Royal Society's journal Proceedings A”, the researchers say:

”There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century.
Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.”


And conclude:

There are many interesting palaeoclimate studies that suggest that solar variability had an influence on pre-industrial climate. There are also some detection–attribution studies using global climate models that suggest there was a detectable influence of solar variability in the first half of the twentieth century and that the solar radiative forcing variations were amplified by some mechanism that is, as yet, unknown. However, these findings are not relevant to any debates about modern climate change. Our results show that the observed rapid rise in
global mean temperatures seen after 1985 cannot be ascribed to solar variability
, whichever of the mechanisms is invoked and no matter how much the solar variation is amplified.”


More Info’ Goto: http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media...pa20071880.pdf

Only 6 planets or moons out of the 100+ bodies in the solar system have been observed to be warming. Uranus, on the other hand, is cooling.

None* of the sources cited by planetoftheapes support the hypothesis that global warming (on Earth or the other Planets mentioned) is due to an increase in solar irradiation.

* Notwithstanding, Richard C. Willson of Columbia University's Center for Climate Systems Research has published new research findings* “... that total solar irradiance, or the total radiant power received by the Earth from the sun, was about 0.036 percent higher in 1996 than in 1986 ...”
He goes on to say:
”... Solar radiation will not displace the dominant role of atmospheric carbon dioxide in global warming, but could be a significant contributing factor, according to the new report by Richard C. Willson, senior research scientist at Columbia's Center for Climate Systems Research, in the Sept. 26 issue of the magazine Science ...”
More: Willson: The Sun May Be Factor in Global Warmup. Columbia University Record, October 3, 1997
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Old 18-10-2007, 07:14   #75
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Kesey, et alli, I think it odd when folks speak of religion and weather in absolute terms.
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