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Old 02-07-2009, 21:50   #31
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Ben,

I began researching boats, marina's, and the such a few months ago. I begin sailing lessons in a few weeks so I will be able to get answers to the same type of questions you are asking. I trust others will be honest, but I am learning that sometimes ego gets involved and people take on questions they are not ready to deal with. I won't be buying a boat for a long time...but I will have gone through an awful lot to learn all that I can to prepare for my dream boat.
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Old 02-07-2009, 22:03   #32
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"I think you should never have "faith". Faith is exactly what gets people into trouble.

If you consider a source credibile, you probably (hopefully?) have some data pertaining to their expertise. In that case, you are not acting on faith, you are rather having confidence in them."

Another T34C

From a philosophical point of view we must have faith in the decision we make. It is the gut sense of knowing what the right decision might/should be. That gut sense is developed from years of experience. It comes from within your gut. It does not come from any external source.
From a practical or scientific point of view we must have confidence in the decision we make. This is the fact driven number crunching logic driven process usually involving statistics which uses confidence limits.
The best decisions are made when the gut sense and the number crunching logic driven process yield the same result. At least that has been my experience.
The simultaneous use of both decision making processes will readily defeat any bullshit artist.
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:39   #33
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Originally Posted by Feral Cement View Post
You might want to say, "The keel bolts will cost $XXXX and the rigging repairs will cost $XXXX and the blister repair and awlgrip will cost $XXXX........" then add it up and subtract from the asking price. You might get a boat with issues that have been priced in and you may be able to sail for some time before the repairs become "necessary". Heck, since it's an interim boat, you might sell it for what you have in it, with the issues already priced in to the next buyer.

As for BSer's - they are EVERYwhere - boats, cars, Wall Street, Congress.....be v-e-r-y careful out there.

John
Sailboat salesmen -- not all of them, but a large number of them, based on my experience -- deserve a special place in hell. I have spent my whole life dealing with various brokers -- house brokers, commercial real estate brokers, investment brokers, new car salesmen, used car salesmen, you name it. Boat brokers take the cake in my experience for sheer nerve, blatant lying, and transparent or not so transparent manipulation of the potential buyer -- they put the worst used-car salesman to shame.

Don't believe anything the broker tells you. Hire the best surveyor you can find, spend as much money as necessary on surveying, and don't rush him. You can't really survey thoroughly a bluewater cruising sailboat with lots of systems in less than a few days. The quicker you do it, the more undiscovered problems you will inherit.
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Old 03-07-2009, 04:19   #34
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I think you should never have "faith". Faith is exactly what gets people into trouble. ...
Semantically and philosophically, I agree with T34C; but nobody ever had the aplomb to write a song called “you gotta have confidence”.

Religious implications aside, “faith” suggests an absolute certainty that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Even my own self-confidence (faith in my own decisions) should be evidence based. Do I know whereof I speak (on this subject) - or not.
Since the answer is generally framed in terms of "more or less", (rather than yes or no), this self-examination most often leads to a degree of certitude, or confidence.
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Old 03-07-2009, 16:43   #35
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No one who spends any time on introspection comes away convinced they are a B.S. artiste
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Old 27-07-2009, 07:42   #36
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Am lucky enough to have a boat mechanic living next door to me. He is hired to repair all the BS problems y'all have. Believe me, he lives for the BSers to strike. Anyway, before I would buy anything that floats and has a motor he is the one I carry along for an inspection. Costs me a dinner and is worth every dime.
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Old 27-07-2009, 08:52   #37
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There is a valid business model here. I had a local Seattle broker try to sell me a boat with such a pack of lies that it cost $3300 in surveys (engine, overall, rig, haulout, and power) to disprove his BS and back away. Expensive lesson for a newbie, but the boat would have been more so. That was a few years ago; now I would like to think I'd see through his lies, which began with the listing text and continued with every conversation.

What is needed is a buyer's consultancy, which would be reputation-based. This is not a "buyer's broker," and is not threatening to the seller... just a pal along on a showing. But since there is no percentage involved, the consultant would not have any reason to care if the deal goes through or not; that's what is toxic in the brokerage model.

It would be well worth the up-front expense to have an expert on one's side with no stake in the outcome.

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Old 01-08-2009, 19:41   #38
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After tons of really good answers........

Ben, I'll say starting off that every response was read to this point, and EVERY STINKING ONE WAS DEAD NUTS RIGHT! DOG, PAUL, John(Feral) & GORD had some really good 1's, not a single bad 1(imho)
that said, digesting Your original posting:
(&FTR, NOT an "engineer", just a life long summa cum laude graduate of the school of hard knocks, doing it the hard way, surviving bs'ers and learning that things are seldom[if EVER] what You see on first appearance) comments inserted in Your posting based on life experience(s) & common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbhflts View Post
This may seem like a fairly stupid post, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbhflts View Post
It only would have been stupid if You DIDN'T post it

Every field seems to have them. The guys that know everything and give you the "trust me" line. When you are new to a field or sub field, you rely on the advice of those with experience. Unfortunately such an exercise illustrates your lack of knowledge and sends a signal to the BS (I know everything and will take advantage of you) types.
Rule#1 IF they (truly) HAVE experience, they aren't BS'ers. If they don't, they ARE...it's that simple. ASK....put them IN THEIR OWN BOX, & then be prepared to close the lid on them for the trap their Mouth built. More follows on this (attorneys learn this 1 in law school, the rest of us from experience).

As an engineer, I don't trust anyone that says "trust me". My rationale being that if someone really knows their salt, they will be able to and want to explain why they have such an opinion, not just rely on such carte blanche statements. IF they say "trust me", say, ok, why should I?
Catches 'em off guard every time. In addition, make note of the resume' they recite & do a little investigating, You may just be doing all their so called "friends" a favor when You discover they're a FRAUD. In addition when the "that's a simple fix" is uttered, ASK...ok, what IS that simple fix? (then confirm w/expert/surveyor #2 who DOESN'T KNOW surveyor/bs'er #1).

Example: I'm looking at purchasing an interim boat to sail for the next couple years prior to commissioning my dream cruiser.
Doesn't sound like a bad plan so far;

The local guy in the club hooked up to all the key members of the club and also the local surveyor has given me this line of "trust me".
I'll wager decent money there are OTHER 'local' surveyors

I was told that the rust (1 cm thick) on the keel bolt nuts is not an issue and is cheap to fix.
Now we get down to the nitty gritty...
Rust IS (& ISN'T) a big deal, it depends. Can the bolts still be tightened? Rust is like blood...usually LQQKS a lot worse than it is; attacking w/ospho, washing thoroughly afterward, then application of a wire brush, wheel on drill if You can get it in there (Brass, rather than Steel is ideal) will tell the tale. Make this a contingency to the offer even before the survey. Cheap fix IF the nuts can be turned, removed, & replaced with new; far more important is the condition of the threads on the keel BOLTS. That can't be determined until the nuts are off. Anyone telling You otherwise(even followed by "trust me")either has superman quality xray vision....or is a BS'er.
I was told that gelcoat cracks are not an issue and cheap to replace.
Gelcoat cracks are caused by 1 of 4 things, & 4 things ONLY.
A-sun crazing; spiderweb like in appearance and usually an Overall problem
B-HULL FLEXING...having been in and out of the water a bunch, sailed too hard, raced too much, rig overtightened, grounding, hull IMPACTS, etc.
C-Delamination; poor bond due to temperature, humidity, or quality of materials in the hull layup process and gelcoat fails to completely adhere to the fiberglass cloth & resin next applied to it when fabricated.
D-Blisters; refer to C, however they can be caused by long term constant exposure to moisture INSIDE the hull & layup of glass/resin was either of poor quality or simply not THICK enough (in the '80's materials costs skyrocketing caused builders to try cutting corners and see just how "thin" they could get away with) & the result was/is/will be moisture leaching through the hull from inside-out; when it hits the gel, it "blisters" it.
ONLY "A" is an "easy fix". Serious sanding, priming & an extremely high quality polyurethane paint (like awlgrip, or emron) w/several coats will cure the problem, forever.
B, C & D are another story completely. They usually require grinding and sanding ALL of the gelcoat off the hull and then proceeding, with "A's" fix, along with a barrier coat, and multiple coats of primer.
Ben, aside this "interim" acquisition being a 14' trailer sailor(& those usually lack keelbolts), ANY HUMAN BEING who says a repair(in the case of b/c/d)of this magnitude(done RIGHT)is an "easy fix" has simply NEVER, EVER DONE IT. That doesn't make them a BS'er, that makes them the biggest BS'er You ever met in Your Life, & so full of "it" that their eyes are Brown.
I was told that engine oil leaks are simple to fix and not an issue.
True, & False. Valve cover gaskets...true. Head Gaskets, Rear Main Seal...false. Depends WHERE the leak is, and how severe. Trust a legit. Surveyor doing a righteous inspection.
I was told that it's easy and cheap to remove a keel to fix the seal between the hull and the keel.
This ties back to the Keel nut/bolt issue; IF/then. IF those BOLTS have to be replaced, not easy, or cheap. You didn't reference What exactly You see AT that seal between keel & hull...we're not psychic; it matters. IF it's weeping rust...RUN, don't walk from this 1.
I was told that there is no chance of osmosis in the boat (20 years old) as he knows the boat and it's good. He's not a BS'er, he's an IDIOT. Osmosis occurs in EVERY boat. It's like US Aging as humans; unstoppable. 20 years means '88-'89, prime candidate for blistering, and accelerated osmosis.
*perhaps since he knows the boat and it's "good" maybe You can get him to sell You his & him buy this 1 since the opinion is so strong?
I was told that P bracket seals etc are simple to replace.
Ben, that depends on how easy the Prop Shaft is to remove. The question when he stated they are simple to replace would have been, "Does the prop & Shaft have to be removed for replacement?" or even better...Is that a water or grease lubricated P Bracket? Now, for those who don't know (since several mentioned confusion)...
On SOME sailboats, all where the propeller & shaft are not encased in the keel where there is minimal shaft exposure, and a prop shaft STRUT is used, a "P Bracket" & Prop Shaft Strut are 1 in the same "P" being for Prop. Water lubricated bearings in same have no 'seals' as water MUST flow through these or they melt. Greased or teflon combinations are another version & require SEALS. Shaft has to be withdrawn to replace either water lubed(highly recommended upgrade IF You pursued this vessel) or "dry" as in seal replacement. Think axle bearing seals or boots; they keep the grease in and the dirt out. just switch water for dirt, You "engineering" types .
European/Brit terminology vs. USA; Shaft Strut/P-Bracket.
(eg: on vehicles) Hood/Bonnet. I say potato, You say potatoe.
ref(for that replacement water lubed strut bearing upgrade):
P Brackets

The list of BS goes on and on.
Well all the above in red was an attempt to deal with that much.

Whilst not an expert, I am an engineer and know how to research, understand, comprehend and assess.
Whilst an expert, I am Not an Engineer and highly recommend You do that research and assess those folks with "Brown Eyes" as those You should depart from the company of...they have an agenda and it is not Your Best Interest(s). Ben, there are people here who know about EVERYTHING, when it comes to boats. Having spent all my adult life in boatyards & most of it in/on/under sailing vessels, I don't know it all. Learn new every day & occasionally here as well. All You have to do is ask.
Searching the internet, talking to friends who are experienced sailors, surveyors and veteran ship engineers, they say this guy is full of ****.
The internet, Your friends, the surveyors, & veteran Ship Engineers accurately assessed his statements, based on the information we've been presented; "trust them", "trust the other posters in this thread"; don't "trust me" unless every syllable penned makes complete sense. If not, ask why.

Deal breakers on any boat seem to be Osmosis, keel bolt rust, keel/hull seal failure, major engine work and rigging.
NAH, PRICE is the deal breaker Ben...and WHERE/How Serious EACH of these issues is. The other concern would be Time Frame, as some of these issues (obviously) can be Extremely Labor Intensive. With estimates for each fix, in a worst case scenario for cost, deducted from his asking price for Your offer, AFTER that survey for all the "other stuff" unseen or initially revealed "May" be worthwhile pursuing...just depends on Your budget, skills, trust of "Club" or where it'd be hauled & the work done. IF it's as bad as You represent, walk away, & let mr.BS'er hook another guppie w/a fatter wallet. Other options for the interim boat HAVE to be available, right?

How do you avoid such charlatans whilst not falling out with their influential mates? ......Other than being polite, then doing your own research and bringing in trusted proven experts.
Sort of answered Your own question with Your own answer. Their "influential mates" have bought the BS, hook...line & sinker; why would You give a rats butt about whether You "fall out" w/a pack of idiots, led by a BS artist or not? Go YOUR Own WAY Ben, That is the WHOLE Purpose of sailing...escaping the "herd mentality". Better, more honest & decent "friends" are awaiting at the next marina/club/yard.

Food for thought.
Try the last posted paragraph for a "second course"?

Perhaps I'm just venting and should have expected such characters as they exist everywhere and shouldn't expect the sailing world to be full of good Samaritans as experienced on this forum.
Flattery will get You almost...
No Where.
My address for the check for this consulation is in PM(<that was a joke).

Vented and appreciate your thoughts.
Venting seems what here IS FOR!

Ben.
-Mick
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:06   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captmick39
... Gelcoat cracks are caused by 1 of 4 things, & 4 things ONLY.
D-Blisters; refer to C, however they can be caused by long term constant exposure to moisture INSIDE the hull & layup of glass/resin was either of poor quality or simply not THICK enough (in the '80's materials costs skyrocketing caused builders to try cutting corners and see just how "thin" they could get away with) & the result was/is/will be moisture leaching through the hull from inside-out; when it hits the gel, it "blisters" it...[/quote]

Actually, I believe that gelcoats that were applied too thickly are just as (or more) common cause of crazing.

See also
GELCOAT CRAZING (Part 1)
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:04   #40
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Back in 2003, Jeff H wrote an excellent primer on FRG construction, which led to an interesting & informative discussion. I highly recommend reading, at least, Jeff’s original post :
“A Primer on Fiberglass Construction” ~ by Jeff H
A Primer on Fiberglass Construction
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:06   #41
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This is a very interesting thread about human interaction. I like Raindog's reply best, because I use it myself and it definitely exposes pontificators. How you handle them is up to you.
Same good sense about surveyors.
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Old 02-08-2009, 19:38   #42
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Raindog was right, agreed JRoger (Gord,4 U too)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
D-Blisters; refer to C, however they can be caused by long term constant exposure to moisture INSIDE the hull & layup of glass/resin was either of poor quality or simply not THICK enough (in the '80's materials costs skyrocketing caused builders to try cutting corners and see just how "thin" they could get away with) & the result was/is/will be moisture leaching through the hull from inside-out; when it hits the gel, it "blisters" it...
Actually, I believe that gelcoats that were applied too thickly are just as (or more) common cause of crazing.

See also
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/gelcoat-crazing-part-1-a-944.html[/quote]

Good Job Gord May...
Make that 5 reasons, although directly related to "D" formentioned, too thick gelcoat was another "overcompensation" for too thin layup following same, sometimes intentional, most times not...really doesn't matter if You wind up w/1; the only good news is that w/too "thick" You can usually sand until You hit the bottom of the "cracks" in the crazing w/o having to go all the way to the glass resin; had completely forgotten about thick gel, been a while since encountering same yet it's sure 'nuff out there on plenty 'o hulls.

Back to the topic & JRogers comment, following my liking RDog's thought processes as well....

Once had the experience in Palmetto, FL, at a "hot dog" brokerage where all the heavy hitting heat merchants(read=lying lounge lizard brokers)hung, and they had a listing in the now defunct "Sailboat Trader".

Doing the walkover/thru inspection, Our SON (age 11, though already well seasoned in vessel repairs "helping the 'old man'")Pointed out rather loudly, quite proud of himself pointing finger and all; "Wow, look at how bad that "X" is, man that's a mess".

The broker responded..."oh, that's an easy fix";
I quiried: "Really? How easy, and how do You do 'it'?
He responded, blah, then blah, blah, blah (read=pure, unadulterated Horse Puckey!); I just said, "oh, ok."

We went below decks while he awaited in the cockpit...last glance he was sitting down, we went in to the v-berth, son closing the door behind us as if to "bring me up to speed"(kind of hilarious recalling now)and rather assertively announced (w/o ever looking around that the accomedations IN that V-Berth, which would be half his) and boldly announced: "Mom, Dad, that GUY's FULL OF CRAP!" I looked at my wife who was beaming & said, You're right son, however it's not really important in the grand scheme of things".
"But DAD, he LIED to us!") now even louder & more emphatically; I said, "Chris, it's ok, he's a salesman and he doesn't know enough to say "I don't know". To wit, Chris responded, "boy, that's pretty pitiful, even I Know that much"(from the mouths of babes ). So we gather our composure & leave that V-Berth(that our daughter was practically slobering over) & You know who is standing right smack dab in the middle of the Salon...heard every word & red as a beet fm head to toe(& this wasn't from the sun). We all silently walked right past him up on decks, I did the quick once around again topsides, we disembarked, headed to his vehicle for a silent ride back to their offices, got out of the car & headed for our truck. Hopped in and left. He stood there shaking his head & walked inside.

Next morning the phone rings, owner of the brokerage, explains that the vessel we'd eyeballed (AFTER they took a financial statement & pulled credit) belongs to a personal friend and he wanted to try and find out why we were no longer interested. After I explained the sitrep, he said "Oh, well I guess I'll have to speak to (don't remember the lounge lizard's name now) about that.

I simply replied, "sir, while it is a nice vessel, fits our budget, and would be perfect for us, we have pricipals and You don't share them." He said "Excuse ME?" I then stated "We don't do business with people we can't trust and You just revealed to that YOU fall in to that category as You told me that You have no problem employing liars, 'nuff said. Have a nice life and please don't call us again."
Before he could utter a syllable he heard
CLICK.

A week later the (even more) perfect boat turned up, for 1/3rd the price, & we didn't hesitate.
The brokerage? They went out of biz years later.

Irony?
Our son, in vet school, goes down to Bradenton/Sarasota for Spring Break & calls us (now 25)...says, "Hey Dad, remember that day in Palmetto, blah, blah, blah?" "Yep, why?"
"Those scumbags went out of business".
"You expected otherwise?"
"Nope, I guess not, just thought You might like to know."
"knew a couple years ago Chris...either You do things right, or sooner than later the front door says 'For Sale'."
He said, "why did we just leave that day...without saying a word, You never did explain it to us...were You 'that mad'?"
Me-"Nope, Chris, at the time it was the perfect thing to do, because YOU were THAT RIGHT, at age 11. Continuing to even talk with that guy would have sent the wrong message to both YOU and Your sister.

When Your BS detector starts pegging the 10 mark, either address, dress down, or delete the BS'er. When Your 11yo Knows they're "heat merchants", take the hint. For You engineer types...if it sounds rediculous, stupid or illogical...it probably is, and it's a BS'er spitting it out all over You. No offense intended to anybody and hopefully everybody derives some good fm. this thread.
-Mick
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Old 02-08-2009, 20:04   #43
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As an engineer I have no problem with the gut reaction, it is totally logical. It helps drive the process to find the truth.
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Old 02-08-2009, 20:11   #44
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Re the scumbags going out of business: it is a reputation-based economy, though sometimes it can take a while. I know I'll cheer when the plumber-from-hell finally goes belly-up, though the broker who cost me a fortune now owns the brokerage. His time will come... word gets around.

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Old 02-08-2009, 20:20   #45
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Ya just know when you hit the send button you're gonna be sorry. But being a glutton for punishment....I hit it anyway.
I'm no boat expert, never claimed to be. But I was a commercial electrician in a past life for longer than I care to remmber. Ran across my share of BSers as well. But on the other side of the coin I ran across enough know-it-all jerks, who no matter how hard you presented them with your experiance had a faulty BS meter as big as their egos just waiting to weild it like a hammer. There are BSers on one side and people so thick they're even too smart for themslves on the other. I guess like anything, there's a line where you can go too far to either side. I try to take people as they come. I watch out the best I can for the BSers... and the smarmy ones as well.
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