Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-07-2009, 21:22   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,823
"It annoys me when bullshitters mouth off about things that are in my areas of expertise.
Some of them can get very belligerent if I point out their errors or lack of knowledge. They give me the “what do you know you are just an engineer” response. Obviously they do not know what I did or we as a group do."

Great answers so far.

Look at it this way, you wasted some time and money dealing with them, but on the other hand you are, and always will be, smarter then they are.

Steve B.
__________________

__________________
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 21:38   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesquaukee View Post
It annoys me when bullshitters mouth off about things that are in my areas of expertise.
Some of them can get very belligerent if I point out their errors or lack of knowledge. They give me the “what do you know you are just an engineer” response. Obviously they do not know what I did or we as a group do.
I'm an ex-Engineer in R&D as well! I also can't stand when someone is so sure about something that my group developed, but are so off with the actual facts. Trying to explain to them is like talking to my friends 8 year old. I just agree and walk away as I too no longer have the patience to deal with absolute morons. I agree, there are BS'ers all over the place.

I always do full research and learn everything I can about the very item I am about to purchase. I can only say meet somewhere in between, arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible, and see where they are going and try to meet in the middle with the price as you know the real price it will take to bring it back to proper life.

Good luck though!
__________________

__________________
shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 01:55   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 60
I like the idea of asking the person in question to help me (because he is so knowledgeable and well connected) and organise full binding quotations for all the questionable aspects of the boat. He can then discredit himself and I don't have to say anything but smile.
__________________
bbhflts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 03:26   #19
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Context - Defining Terms and Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbhflts View Post

I was told that the rust (1 cm thick) on the keel bolt nuts is not an issue and is cheap to fix.
I was told that gelcoat cracks are not an issue and cheap to replace.
I was told that engine oil leaks are simple to fix and not an issue.
I was told that it's easy and cheap to remove a keel to fix the seal between the hull and the keel.
I was told that there is no chance of osmosis in the boat (20 years old) as he knows the boat and it's good.
I was told that P bracket seals etc are simple to replace.
First of all I don't think there are ex-engineers. I are one and will always be one.

The issue here is not whether someone is providing falsehoods or bad information. For me the issue is one of context and definition.

Context - Used boats, 20 years old.
Comparative analysis for cost projections - New boat of similar type or a similar vintage boat in "like new" condition.

With that context, fixing everything on your list can be "relatively" cheap.

What is still missing is a quantification.

10,000 blisters and 2,000 gelcoat cracks is probably not cheap to fix.

2 quarts per hour of oil consumption/loss is probably not cheap to fix.

Another way to quantify cost is by the depth of your wallet, the end result you want and the standards that you personally apply.

There is a guy here that just bought what many would consider to be a perfectly serviceable Maxi 77. He is a marine engineer and is basically going stem to stern on the boat. He is making her a jewel.

She will be worth far less than he can sell her for because there are market forces at work but for his reasons that's ok.

So I wouldn't condemn the messenger but I would always dig deeper into context and weigh against my personal set of values.

(NS - As a moderator I have to say that CF tries to run as a PG type forum. The thread title and the liberal use of the "s" word approaches our limits. Just a friendly reminder - someone has to do it - )
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 03:42   #20
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbhflts View Post
How do you avoid such charlatans whilst not falling out with their influential mates? ......Other than being polite, then doing your own research and bringing in trusted proven experts.
I guess I just take the easy way out with a "Right, well thanks for the info, I appreciate it" and walk away.

If challenged later as to why I haven't taken their "valuable advice", I reply with a "Well, you know me, I always go a bit overboard" or some such comment.

I sort of like them in a perverse kind of way, they make me feel "normal"
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 04:19   #21
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,573
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I guess I just take the easy way out with a "Right, well thanks for the info, I appreciate it" and walk away...
Not a bad policy.

Alternatively, you might ask the know-it-all, who discounts deficiencies, which of them he will (or will pay for) repair.

If you prefer to not be a smart-ass, you might ask him/her to elucidate exactly how such a “simple/cheap” rehabilitation is effected.
A little naive dis-ingenuity can string out his explanation until even he may realise it’s easier to say, than to do.

Accept no "mysteries".
Determine the root cause, ultimate result or consequence, and method & cost of rectifying any observed imperfection, fault, or deficiency.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 06:07   #22
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 27
And here I was thinking the whole point of owning a yacht was to throw money at it. But there you go. LOL.
__________________
Live to Dive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 06:08   #23
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 27
And then there is that other oft quoted line "no problem". Make a bet.
__________________
Live to Dive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 07:12   #24
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
The trick when using the line "Trust me" is to look folk straight in the eye.

Trust me

But as already said, if in doubt bring someone into your area of knowledge. Indeed, IMO, that approach is no bad thing whether or not you suspect BS.
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 07:22   #25
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
The trick when using the line "Trust me" is to look folk straight in the eye.

Trust me
It's all about sincerity. Once you can fake that the rest is easy.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 07:55   #26
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: NJ, Paris FR and, for the moment, Cape Coral FL
Boat: Islander Freeport 41, AEGEA
Posts: 186
First, it ain't braggin if you've done it. I can't tell you how many times I've rolled my eyes at an obvious BSer, only to find out that it wasn't BS.

Next, despite the above, I can't tell you how many times I've rolled my eyes at an obvious BSer and found out it was BS.

Finally, I, like a number of previous posters, am an engineer. My whole career, all 50 years of it, consisted of finding the solution set that fit all the data. The hardest part was deciding what was data. There were two kinds, what I saw and what I heard. Some of what I saw, I misread. Some of what I heard was false. Some of both kinds of data was true. The hardest part of my job was to take it all in without prejudice, sorting out the real from the false and creating a "true" picture. Reading these threads it's obvious some people know what they are talking about. Some are well meaning but don't have a clue. Still, even those who don't have a clue may have observed something of value. Take it all in and draw your own conclusions. You'll find out soon enough who you can believe and who you can't.

Good luck,

Dick Pluta
AEGEA
__________________
Dick Pluta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 10:43   #27
Registered User
 
fareweather's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Colorado
Boat: Manta 40
Posts: 107
I had a counselor in college tell me once that 90% of what comes at you is BS. Well he was wrong it's more like 98%, the secret to a happy life is being able to identify the 2% whether it involves a boat or not.

I have bought many vehicles over the years to the point of it being an addiction but my best strategy was to just be quiet, if you can tolerate long silences you'd be amazed at what people will tell you.
__________________
Moderators are cool.
fareweather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 11:22   #28
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,573
Images: 240
We’ve all, including I, “piled on”, criticising the know-it-all expert, who doesn’t explain & defend his position/opinion. For the most part, rightly so.

However, sometimes you just gotta have faith.

Some subjects are so complex as to deserv/require a complete book to fully explain. To comprehend that book, the reader might need bookfuls of requisite knowledge.

Choose your expert carefully; because sometimes we just have to accept his opinion (more or less) at face value.

As 'The Eagles' sang (my theme song from downhill ski-racing days):
"...When there’s nothing to believe in
Still you’re coming back, you’re running back
You’re coming back for more
So put me on a highway
And show me a sign
And take it to the limit one more time..."
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 11:40   #29
Registered User
 
mesquaukee's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Western Caribbean & ocassionaly inCanada
Boat: Mesqua Ukee, Buccaneer 40 (Salar 40)
Posts: 480
Amen to the above 3 posts.
__________________
mesquaukee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 20:45   #30
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
We’ve all, including I, “piled on”, criticising the know-it-all expert, who doesn’t explain & defend his position/opinion. For the most part, rightly so.

However, sometimes you just gotta have faith.

Some subjects are so complex as to deserv/require a complete book to fully explain. To comprehend that book, the reader might need bookfuls of requisite knowledge.

Choose your expert carefully; because sometimes we just have to accept his opinion (more or less) at face value.
I think you should never have "faith". Faith is exactly what gets people into trouble.

If you consider a source credibile, you probably (hopefully?) have some data pertaining to their expertise. In that case, you are not acting on faith, you are rather having confidence in them.

faith and belief =! confidence and prediction. It may seem pedantic, but I think the distinction important. Especially when talking to many of my fellow Americans.
__________________

__________________
anotherT34C is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dealing with a marina? beetlejuice30 Liveaboard's Forum 12 02-02-2009 22:14
Dealing with Santa Ana's in the Channel Islands rbaron Other 4 27-10-2008 10:59
Dealing with Wind Shifts GordMay General Sailing Forum 10 04-07-2007 14:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.