Dealing with BSers

[senormechanico]

"It annoys me when bullshitters mouth off about things that are in my areas of expertise.
Some of them can get very belligerent if I point out their errors or lack of knowledge. They give me the “what do you know you are just an engineer” response. Obviously they do not know what I did or we as a group do."

Great answers so far.

Look at it this way, you wasted some time and money dealing with them, but on the other hand you are, and always will be, smarter then they are.

Steve B.

[shadow]

Originally Posted by mesquaukee

It annoys me when bullshitters mouth off about things that are in my areas of expertise.
Some of them can get very belligerent if I point out their errors or lack of knowledge. They give me the “what do you know you are just an engineer” response. Obviously they do not know what I did or we as a group do.

I'm an ex-Engineer in R&D as well! I also can't stand when someone is so sure about something that my group developed, but are so off with the actual facts. Trying to explain to them is like talking to my friends 8 year old. I just agree and walk away as I too no longer have the patience to deal with absolute morons. I agree, there are BS'ers all over the place.

I always do full research and learn everything I can about the very item I am about to purchase. I can only say meet somewhere in between, arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible, and see where they are going and try to meet in the middle with the price as you know the real price it will take to bring it back to proper life.

Good luck though!

[bbhflts]

I like the idea of asking the person in question to help me (because he is so knowledgeable and well connected) and organise full binding quotations for all the questionable aspects of the boat. He can then discredit himself and I don't have to say anything but smile.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by bbhflts

I was told that the rust (1 cm thick) on the keel bolt nuts is not an issue and is cheap to fix.
I was told that gelcoat cracks are not an issue and cheap to replace.
I was told that engine oil leaks are simple to fix and not an issue.
I was told that it's easy and cheap to remove a keel to fix the seal between the hull and the keel.
I was told that there is no chance of osmosis in the boat (20 years old) as he knows the boat and it's good.
I was told that P bracket seals etc are simple to replace.

First of all I don't think there are ex-engineers. I are one and will always be one.

The issue here is not whether someone is providing falsehoods or bad information. For me the issue is one of context and definition.

Context - Used boats, 20 years old.
Comparative analysis for cost projections - New boat of similar type or a similar vintage boat in "like new" condition.

With that context, fixing everything on your list can be "relatively" cheap.

What is still missing is a quantification.

10,000 blisters and 2,000 gelcoat cracks is probably not cheap to fix.

2 quarts per hour of oil consumption/loss is probably not cheap to fix.

Another way to quantify cost is by the depth of your wallet, the end result you want and the standards that you personally apply.

There is a guy here that just bought what many would consider to be a perfectly serviceable Maxi 77. He is a marine engineer and is basically going stem to stern on the boat. He is making her a jewel.

She will be worth far less than he can sell her for because there are market forces at work but for his reasons that's ok.

So I wouldn't condemn the messenger but I would always dig deeper into context and weigh against my personal set of values.

(NS - As a moderator I have to say that CF tries to run as a PG type forum. The thread title and the liberal use of the "s" word approaches our limits. Just a friendly reminder - someone has to do it - )

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by bbhflts

How do you avoid such charlatans whilst not falling out with their influential mates? ......Other than being polite, then doing your own research and bringing in trusted proven experts.

I guess I just take the easy way out with a "Right, well thanks for the info, I appreciate it" and walk away.

If challenged later as to why I haven't taken their "valuable advice", I reply with a "Well, you know me, I always go a bit overboard" or some such comment.

I sort of like them in a perverse kind of way, they make me feel "normal"

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I guess I just take the easy way out with a "Right, well thanks for the info, I appreciate it" and walk away...

Not a bad policy.

Alternatively, you might ask the know-it-all, who discounts deficiencies, which of them he will (or will pay for) repair.

If you prefer to not be a smart-ass, you might ask him/her to elucidate exactly how such a “simple/cheap” rehabilitation is effected.
A little naive dis-ingenuity can string out his explanation until even he may realise it’s easier to say, than to do.

Accept no "mysteries".
Determine the root cause, ultimate result or consequence, and method & cost of rectifying any observed imperfection, fault, or deficiency.

[Live to Dive]

And here I was thinking the whole point of owning a yacht was to throw money at it. But there you go. LOL.

[Live to Dive]

And then there is that other oft quoted line "no problem". Make a bet.

[David_Old_Jersey]

The trick when using the line "Trust me" is to look folk straight in the eye.

Trust me

But as already said, if in doubt bring someone into your area of knowledge. Indeed, IMO, that approach is no bad thing whether or not you suspect BS.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

The trick when using the line "Trust me" is to look folk straight in the eye.

Trust me

It's all about sincerity. Once you can fake that the rest is easy.

[Dick Pluta]

First, it ain't braggin if you've done it. I can't tell you how many times I've rolled my eyes at an obvious BSer, only to find out that it wasn't BS.

Next, despite the above, I can't tell you how many times I've rolled my eyes at an obvious BSer and found out it was BS.

Finally, I, like a number of previous posters, am an engineer. My whole career, all 50 years of it, consisted of finding the solution set that fit all the data. The hardest part was deciding what was data. There were two kinds, what I saw and what I heard. Some of what I saw, I misread. Some of what I heard was false. Some of both kinds of data was true. The hardest part of my job was to take it all in without prejudice, sorting out the real from the false and creating a "true" picture. Reading these threads it's obvious some people know what they are talking about. Some are well meaning but don't have a clue. Still, even those who don't have a clue may have observed something of value. Take it all in and draw your own conclusions. You'll find out soon enough who you can believe and who you can't.

Good luck,

Dick Pluta
AEGEA

[fareweather]

I had a counselor in college tell me once that 90% of what comes at you is BS. Well he was wrong it's more like 98%, the secret to a happy life is being able to identify the 2% whether it involves a boat or not.

I have bought many vehicles over the years to the point of it being an addiction but my best strategy was to just be quiet, if you can tolerate long silences you'd be amazed at what people will tell you.

[GordMay]

We’ve all, including I, “piled on”, criticising the know-it-all expert, who doesn’t explain & defend his position/opinion. For the most part, rightly so.

However, sometimes you just gotta have faith.

Some subjects are so complex as to deserv/require a complete book to fully explain. To comprehend that book, the reader might need bookfuls of requisite knowledge.

Choose your expert carefully; because sometimes we just have to accept his opinion (more or less) at face value.

As 'The Eagles' sang (my theme song from downhill ski-racing days):
"...When there’s nothing to believe in
Still you’re coming back, you’re running back
You’re coming back for more
So put me on a highway
And show me a sign
And take it to the limit one more time..."

[mesquaukee]

Amen to the above 3 posts.

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by GordMay

We’ve all, including I, “piled on”, criticising the know-it-all expert, who doesn’t explain & defend his position/opinion. For the most part, rightly so.

However, sometimes you just gotta have faith.

Some subjects are so complex as to deserv/require a complete book to fully explain. To comprehend that book, the reader might need bookfuls of requisite knowledge.

Choose your expert carefully; because sometimes we just have to accept his opinion (more or less) at face value.

I think you should never have "faith". Faith is exactly what gets people into trouble.

If you consider a source credibile, you probably (hopefully?) have some data pertaining to their expertise. In that case, you are not acting on faith, you are rather having confidence in them.

faith and belief =! confidence and prediction. It may seem pedantic, but I think the distinction important. Especially when talking to many of my fellow Americans.