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Old 15-03-2009, 18:27   #76
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Hmm... I'm not so sure. Pointing out Dr. Dave as an example may be a bit like pointing out Bill Gates as an example of why college is unnecessary. Most of us are just skilled or semi-skilled schlubs who have to leave our profession if we want to go out and play on the water. And for most of us, it is playing.

I don't pretend to know how to quantify the debt we all owe to civilization, or even if it can ever really be paid off at all. I'm really just thinking out loud, but for myself, I think I'm too guilt ridden with the western work ethic to spend more than a year or two at a time away from the "office".

Abandoning civilization in time of crisis doesn't seem like it should be an option.
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Old 15-03-2009, 19:13   #77
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Hmm... I'm not so sure. Pointing out Dr. Dave as an example may be a bit like pointing out Bill Gates as an example of why college is unnecessary. Most of us are just skilled or semi-skilled schlubs who have to leave our profession if we want to go out and play on the water. And for most of us, it is playing.

I don't pretend to know how to quantify the debt we all owe to civilization, or even if it can ever really be paid off at all. I'm really just thinking out loud, but for myself, I think I'm too guilt ridden with the western work ethic to spend more than a year or two at a time away from the "office".

Abandoning civilization in time of crisis doesn't seem like it should be an option.
I dont understand why you have this guilt and I think its something that you dont have to carry? If a man does his best in life , makes an hounest living and helps others -does it matter if its aboard a yacht or in an office downtown? Isnt this enough?

When I cruise I meet wonderful people in many different cultures/countrys who have influenced and helped me and I them, -this exchange of ideas and the selfless acts of helping others alone creates ripples in the pound of life and contribute to all the civilizations-and the understandings of the peoples of different races, religions and nationalities My office follows me where ever I go i- and I really feel good about it!
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Old 16-03-2009, 06:44   #78
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There were some I knew when I was still in the workforce who would be doing Civilization a favor by dropping out and going cruising.

Seriously, I think that those who have made some "contribution" beyond their own self-interest while in the "working world" will find ways to continue to contribute when in the cruising lifestyle. And those who haven't, won't. One's character doesn't change easily.
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Old 16-03-2009, 09:32   #79
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The contribution one makes to society (oh how noble that sounds) is to do what is on your heart to do. One man builds a skyscraper, another makes decisions in a courtroom. Still others inspire by their demonstration of freedom and independence when sailing far from the madding crowds! Only as individuals can we contribute and only by our own standards. I will not decide for you what is most noble nor can you decide for me. Anything else is selfish judgement.
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Old 16-03-2009, 09:48   #80
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Stay home because of the obligation to contribute to civilization....

To understand that this is wrong, read Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia first. Civilization is based on living in cities/towns/etc. and agriculture with excess of agricultural produce. Instead of bartering, money is used so that the system is fair. Most civilizations evolved to an industrial form instead of agricultural.

This means that when you live in a city and buy the stuff you need without being involved in crime to acquire the money, you contribute to that civilization.

This also means that as soon as you sell all that you own, take your money and leave the place, your obligation to contribute to it is automatically void as you choose not to profit from it either. You go and join another society and get obligations there instead.

Remember that a civilization is something exclusively for the people that live inside it and only those people have an obligation to contribute to it. If you would force outsiders to contribute, you would plunder that other society. If you would force people to stay in your civilization, you would imprison them, take away their freedom. Both techniques are often used by civilizations, make no mistake ;-)

All that effectively means that once you become financially independent of your civilization, and the value of the type of money you have is recognized elsewhere, you can choose to leave and play without any obligation to the civilization you leave. The money you gathered equals the contribution you made (you were only payed the value of your contribution).

If many people do that, this might threaten the civilization. Governments recognize that threat and created a refined system to counter it: dictated education and taxes. With dictated education I mean that the government, in their role of the "wish of the people of the civilization", decide what knowledge and values to teach in- and outside of the class-room. They will push the young ones into education for the jobs that need more manpower and they will paint their wish for the future and describe that as the best way to go to. Mommy will tell her little boy that if he wants a car as nice as that of the neighbor, he should do his best in school to get a good paying job. She will also teach him how to achieve marrying that pretty girl, what clothes to wear and how to behave to reach that goal. The boy learns that it is important to earn lots of money, and have an expensive car and wife. This, however, doesn't mean that these are important goals for your life, but you believe that because they keep telling you that... you are actually programmed to behave in a way that will keep you inside the civilization (mortgage/debt etc.) Tax is an easy one: reduce the money one has and you reduce the chance he gets financially independent, while at the same time creating a bigger government that gets a tighter control of the civilization and a cultural elite which, in many if not all cases, leads to a parasitic elite.

If you study this, you also find that it's not fair to ask 2 persons to pay a different amount of tax. In the end, it's also counter-productive to do that as people recognize it's better for them to remove their selves or their operation elsewhere (like China) to reduce the payment of tax, or even to not take that high responsibility job considering the money you are left with after paying taxes is not much more than the worry-free jobs out there. In many cases, these schemes are defended by creating an institute named "social care": you are forced to pay for the weak and the ones in need where the bigger shoulders should carry more of this weight. They don't tell you that this also really helps keeping successful individuals from becoming financially independent. They also don't tell you about the parasitic elite, those who take your money without contributing to the civilization, or that the amount of tax collected in this way far exceeds the amount of money spend on social care.

Fact is, that a civilization needs resources, population growth and tax collection to survive. Imperialism is just one technique to accomplish that, but every civilization will fall in the end and there have been much more successful civilizations in the past than anything we have today.

So, don't stay home because of an obligation to contribute to civilization. If you worked hard enough to be able to leave, you earned it!

I'll end my post with a quote:

Quote:
During the initial phase of a sociodemographic cycle we observe relatively high levels of per capita production and consumption, which leads not only to relatively high population growth rates, but also to relatively high rates of surplus production. As a result, during this phase the population can afford to pay taxes without great problems, the taxes are quite easily collectible, and the population growth is accompanied by the growth of state revenues. During the intermediate phase, the increasing overpopulation leads to the decrease of per capita production and consumption levels, it becomes more and more difficult to collect taxes, and state revenues stop growing, whereas the state expenditures grow due to the growth of the population controlled by the state. As a result, during this phase the state starts experiencing considerable fiscal problems. During the final pre-collapse phases the overpopulation leads to further decrease of per capita production, the surplus production further decreases, state revenues shrink, but the state needs more and more resources to control the growing (though with lower and lower rates) population. Eventually this leads to famines, epidemics, state breakdown, and demographic and civilization collapse (Peter Turchin. Historical Dynamics. Princeton University Press, 2003:121–127).
cheers,
Nick.
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Old 16-03-2009, 10:00   #81
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s/v Jedi: Well said. My thoughts exactly, but I couldn't have put them down nearly as elegantly as you did.
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Old 20-03-2009, 17:37   #82
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Why not have a pre-apocalypse Waterworld?

With all the brains and talent, we have in the cruising world, why not set up our own Waterworld type out posts around the world, surely we could find places that are cruiser friendly away from the more oppressive regimes and set up little islands of refuge. Solar/Wind powered with a fresh water supply, we could even emulate the polynesians and set up fish ponds in the lagoons of the atolls. Surely there are some islands here and there that, could be used for this purpose. Set up a ham radio network to keep everyone linked up.
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Old 20-03-2009, 18:01   #83
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Old 20-03-2009, 20:18   #84
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With all the brains and talent, we have in the cruising world, why not set up our own Waterworld type out posts around the world, surely we could find places that are cruiser friendly away from the more oppressive regimes and set up little islands of refuge. Solar/Wind powered with a fresh water supply, we could even emulate the polynesians and set up fish ponds in the lagoons of the atolls. Surely there are some islands here and there that, could be used for this purpose. Set up a ham radio network to keep everyone linked up.
You have discovered the secret that every long range cruiser knows. Your yacht is your island of refuge, and you already have everything you need to live in Waterworld. The coconut telegraph has all the details ready to dispense to those who want to live in Waterworld.
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Old 20-03-2009, 21:23   #85
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Waterworld

True enough, however I don't know how to grow mangoes and papayas on my boat, I have been to sea all of my life and love it there more than anywhere, but I still want a place to grow a salsa garden. There is nothing better than submerging yourself in a fresh water pool at the base of a waterfall after an extended time at sea.
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Old 20-03-2009, 21:57   #86
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I'm going where these lovelies are...I'd rather be with them on their Island looking at my little ship in their Lagoon...
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Old 20-03-2009, 22:37   #87
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You'd get sick and tired of them too...somebody else already is.
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Old 21-03-2009, 01:54   #88
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You'd get sick and tired of them too...somebody else already is.
Knowing myself, I probably would...but it would take awhile...Like Christian says..."Here's to swimmin with bowlegged women"
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Old 21-03-2009, 02:39   #89
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Thumbs up That is the symmetry of it all.

That is the beautiful part of going to these places, come in recharge and gorge yourself until sated. Then off to sea to blow all the shore side nonsense out of your head and look on a horizon with out end and drink in the peace that we all know out there.
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Old 23-08-2011, 11:08   #90
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Re: Cruising & the coming storm~recession, depression, climate change, peak oil

Was just looking through this thread, and its interesting to see people's ideas of what is goping to happen, and then realize that these posts are about 3 years old and we're at the time they were speculating about. But in the end, regardless of what happens, that's pretty much why we cruise. the ocean is constant, and by becoming self sufficient we rise above all the other.
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