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Old 19-11-2014, 14:21   #271
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggray View Post
I've just read the beginning of this thread, and the end of it.

But have to respond...mass is not weight.

FWIW, I grew up with the Imperial system, and use the Imperial system. As an engineer I accept that metric makes more sense, but when I read a metric dimension, I mentally convert the dimension to Imperial to visualize the size.

If I'm measuring a dimension that will need to be divided into halves or thirds, for example, my tape has both scales, so I use whichever one allows easier mental math.

And I really appreciate Mr. Whitworth.
I have to concur

As to mass and weight, yes of course they are different but that difference is only important to science IMO. In everyday dealings in the shop, the distinction is not required. I buy potatoes by the weight and it is measured here in kilograms and elsewhere in pounds.
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Old 19-11-2014, 14:48   #272
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I have to concur

As to mass and weight, yes of course they are different but that difference is only important to science IMO. In everyday dealings in the shop, the distinction is not required. I buy potatoes by the weight and it is measured here in kilograms and elsewhere in pounds.
In Canadian grocery stores (who have been metric for 3 decades) to this day, you will see large pricing in pounds or ounces, and in small, the price per Kilogram or per 100 grams. The only legal way to sell is metric, and that is what the grocery till will ring up, but even those that took only metric in school visualize in pounds.

There were a number of years when we first went metric where it was illegal to show the prices in imperial, but the backlash was so strong that the regulations were changed.

Here is an example for a flyer...notice the price/lb is large, price/kg is small.

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Old 19-11-2014, 15:00   #273
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
In Canadian grocery stores (who have been metric for 3 decades) to this day, you will see large pricing in pounds or ounces, and in small, the price per Kilogram or per 100 grams. The only legal way to sell is metric, and that is what the grocery till will ring up, but even those that took only metric in school visualize in pounds.

There were a number of years when we first went metric where it was illegal to show the prices in imperial, but the backlash was so strong that the regulations were changed.

Here is an example for a flyer...notice the price/lb is large, price/kg is small.

I want to go shopping there
Not so much for the dual pricing but because all the checkout lanes will be open - never happens here
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Old 19-11-2014, 15:59   #274
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Wotname;

"Mass can be measured by comparing the weight of the unknown matter to
the weight and mass of the known matter at the same location. Mass is
difficult to measure without using weight or without using volumes and
densities. The balance method you suggest requires a gravitational force
before it will work, so it also is measuring weight. Try using a balance in
deep space - possible but very very difficult as the gravitational force to
some very very distant galaxy is so weak as to almost meaningless."


Did you consider density ?

"Mass is measured by using a balance comparing a known amount of matter to an unknown amount of matter.
Weight is measured on a scale."
Well I learned this from New York University Math Dept. I suppose
they could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

And I stand corrected about the mass of feathers. I meant volume.

After further research I learned that 1oz of Gold has more mass than 1oz of
feathers do to density. Using the same measuring scale for the said 1oz.

And attending school here in the USA back in the 50's and 60's we were
required to learn about the Troy oz, long tons, etc. and the strongest man
made product in the world.
And to learn metric if you couldn't cope with fractions...

The only gold I have ever purchased was
contained in a ring, and she seemed to be more concerned about what
caret the gold was(not the weight), and how many carets the diamond was.
She could measure inclusions without a ruler too...lol

My oldest son wheels and deals in the gold market. All I ever hear is
grams, bars, 1/2 bars, 1/4 bars, etc.. I will ask him about the Troy oz,
and if it is used frequently.

My pocket billiards cue is approx. 59 inches long(assembled), weighs approx. 21
oz's(depending on humidity),and has a 14mm tip on it. . And the British
have smaller balls than we do in the USA(that shouldn't be news huh...lol)
It's all good...
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Old 19-11-2014, 16:14   #275
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

The British use fingers for "pocket billiards" as well.

Coops.
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Old 19-11-2014, 21:37   #276
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

The troy ounce (oz t) is a unit of imperial measure. In the present day it is most commonly used to gauge the mass of precious metals. One troy ounce is currently defined as exactly 0.0311034768 kg or 31.1034768 g. One troy ounce is equivalent to approximately 1.09714 avoirdupois ounces.


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Old 20-11-2014, 01:58   #277
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

I like 1oz = 30mil = 1 nip X 22= headache.

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Old 20-11-2014, 02:00   #278
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finistere View Post
One troy ounce is equivalent to approximately 1.09714 avoirdupois ounces.
And the reason for all that can be found in the origin of the word "ounce". It's almost the same as the word "inch" in the sense of coming to English via Old French from Latin.

And the Latin uncia was one twelfth part.

So 12 Troy ounces = 1 pound.

For whatever reason (which I assume had something to do with increasing their profits from their customers), merchants of ordinary goods preferred to subdivide the pound into 16 ounces and thus create avoirdupois (Old French avoir = aveir = "ordinary goods"; du pois = du peis, "of weight").

In the late 14th century, ounces were also used as measure of time (7.5 seconds, in other words 1/12 of 90 seconds) and as a measure of distance (3 inches, or 1/12 of 1 yard).

All in all, the ounce nonsense (Troy vs avoirdupois; whether the unit of measure for distance is one foot or one yard, whether the unit of measurement for time should be 1 second, 1 minute, or 1.5 minutes) is a great argument for the simplicity of the metric system.

I reckon the metre, like the yard, was based on a human measurement: that of the length of the stride or pace of a person. The stuff about being associated with the size of this planet was a post-hoc rationalisation, thought up as a sale pitch for those attracted by a global vision instead of the usual parochialism or pre-scientific Europe.

Al
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Old 20-11-2014, 02:09   #279
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Imperial Question:
Which is heavier - an once of gold or an ounce of feathers?

Answer: an ounce of gold.


Metric Question:
Which is heavier - a kilogram of gold or a kilogram of feathers.

Answer: they both weigh the same.

So tell me which system is better for determining mass (weight).
Which bloody system has multiple types of ounces??

The reason the joke works, and from the reactions I suspect most here didn't know this (and thus didn't get the joke), is that gold is weighed in troy ounces, 31.10348 grams, and feathers would be weighed in regular ounces, 28.3495etc grams. There is also the fluid ounce, 28.413xxxx grams.

Imperial is a ridiculous system. It works, but badly. I've been an engineer in Commonwealth and European countries, and am a sailor, and work with both on a daily basis. The only leeway I give to the Imperial system is the nautical mile. Simply because it makes navigating easier. Other than that, scrap it.


Onno
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Old 20-11-2014, 02:41   #280
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Re: Convenience of the metric system



I got to say, reading this thread gives quite a laugh. It's like a bunch of blokes measuring appendixes and thems are measured in inches, not mm.
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Old 21-11-2014, 01:58   #281
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B. View Post
Wotname;

"Mass can be measured by comparing the weight of the unknown matter to
the weight and mass of the known matter at the same location. Mass is
difficult to measure without using weight or without using volumes and
densities. The balance method you suggest requires a gravitational force
before it will work, so it also is measuring weight. Try using a balance in
deep space - possible but very very difficult as the gravitational force to
some very very distant galaxy is so weak as to almost meaningless."


Did you consider density ?

"Mass is measured by using a balance comparing a known amount of matter to an unknown amount of matter.
Weight is measured on a scale."
Well I learned this from New York University Math Dept. I suppose
they could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

OK, the maths department is partly right. The balance (as in beam balance) is a useful way of measuring mass providing there is a gravitational attraction or another constant acceleration acting on the beam balance. In the absence of gravity (say in deep space), the balance cannot be used to measure mass. So it doesn't directly measure mass per sec. A scale (usually a spring balance) will measure weight anywhere.

And I stand corrected about the mass of feathers. I meant volume.

After further research I learned that 1oz of Gold has more mass than 1oz of
feathers do to density. Using the same measuring scale for the said 1oz.

I do hope you are pulling my leg . If not, I recommend some more research. If using the same measuring scale, say avoirdupois oz or grams or whatever, the mass remains the same regardless of any other property (including density) of the object.

And attending school here in the USA back in the 50's and 60's we were
required to learn about the Troy oz, long tons, etc. and the strongest man
made product in the world.
And to learn metric if you couldn't cope with fractions...

The only gold I have ever purchased was
contained in a ring, and she seemed to be more concerned about what
caret the gold was(not the weight), and how many carets the diamond was.
She could measure inclusions without a ruler too...lol

I hear you
My oldest son wheels and deals in the gold market. All I ever hear is
grams, bars, 1/2 bars, 1/4 bars, etc.. I will ask him about the Troy oz,
and if it is used frequently.

My pocket billiards cue is approx. 59 inches long(assembled), weighs approx. 21
oz's(depending on humidity),and has a 14mm tip on it. . And the British
have smaller balls than we do in the USA(that shouldn't be news huh...lol)
It's all good...
Yep, all's good
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Old 21-11-2014, 02:07   #282
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post


I got to say, reading this thread gives quite a laugh. It's like a bunch of blokes measuring appendixes and thems are measured in inches, not mm.
You must mix with a different bunch blokes than I do - I never meet a bunch of guys measuring appendixes although I do know one who had his one removed.
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Old 21-11-2014, 02:44   #283
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

appendages!
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Old 21-11-2014, 03:27   #284
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

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appendages!
Don't mix with them who measure them either
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Old 15-10-2015, 12:49   #285
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Re: Convenience of the metric system

Force is gravity multiplyed with weight.

In the metric system is
Gravity 9.81 m/s²
Weight is measured in kg.
Force is measured in N, and this will give N = 9.81 m/s² * kg.

In the imperial system that would be:
Gravity 32’ 2 ¼” /s².
Weight is measured in pound. I call it pound(w).
Force is measured in pound. I call it pound(f).

This will give that pound(f) = 32’ 2 ¼” /s² * pound(w).

I know that the imperial system is crazy but I hope that I have misunderstood something.
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