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Old 01-09-2013, 09:48   #121
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

It never ceases to amaze me the intelligence, eloquence and scientific knowhow, posters on this Cruising Forum possess. And I mean that in the most complimentary way! I related just one experience that one of my sons had teaching high school science recently and it illicited many insightful retorts, none of them rude, but well thought out, cogent observations. I must say, I've learned more about global warming, climate change, AGW (I even know what that stands for now!), the 'hockey stick' theory and many other climate change terms and trends. Thank you all for the lessons!
There appears to be consensus that something is happening, the causes are up for debate but man and his contribution to his environment has something to do with it, what and how much appears up for debate but the believers seem to outrank the deniers.
Because I no longer live aboard rather in the high Sierra, my interest in the weather is still high but has a bit of a different focus.
I don't think there are many non-scientific sources like CF where we can get the kind of unvarnished opinion along with scientific data to back much of it up regardless which side of the issue you choose to support.
I'm just thankful we have CF as a tool to allow us to freely discuss, agree, disagree and learn about what appears to me to be a complex subject that affects all of us. Kudos to the Moderators who allow the discussion to roam free and let us wheel around moving the ditches at the sides of the road if it helps the dialogue continue. Cheers, All... Phil
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:51   #122
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Evidence? You want evidence? I'll put up 100 units, you can even name the denomination. (USD,CDN, AUD, peso, quid, baht, yen, etc) Any monies to be exchanged shall be forwarded to CruisersForums.com, or to the hands of the or an administrators or an administrator of this webpage. Such decision will solely reside with and to the aforementioned administrator(s).

The rules are you post whatever you have in your hand. I call. I'll even let the illustrious CF gang be the judge of who wins. That's how sure I am.

You say climate change is wholly man made. Do I have that right? If not, please explain your side of the debate in your own terms. Do not post links, I want to hear your own cogent argument for your side.

In debate, I will argue my side and without posting links to other webpages, blogs, or other. My argument will consist of my own words. To be clear, my side is that climate change is wholly independent of man-made artifice. Further, whatever climatic change on a global scale has come about is not, repeat not, significantly derived from, resultant of, numerically based upon, and or, incumbent upon the manifestations of man, ie, humans. Are there any words or terms here which you require further definition?

This is a direct challenge to you either to put up or shut up. Let the merriement commence. Either you or I have 100 units withdrawn from our accounts as decided by a largely biased CF contingent. I remind you, it is a contingent biased in your behalf.

There is no time limit. I am sorry to say this but even given the rapidity of the internet there still must be time allowed for each of us to put together a proper response to the other. I don't measure my life according to the internet and I suspect you do not either. Therefore, proper consideration shall be afforded to each of us in this debate.

Do we have a deal?

By answering in the affirmative you are entering into a legally binding contract. While no legal action will be taken towards you by me, by your acceptance you agree to pay the afore stated sum to the administrators of this web page. You may choose to decline as you are entitled. This contract shall extend only to the parties known as Sneuman and Richard5.
Translated:

I am better, bigger, badder and smarter than you! Wanna step outside?!
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:52   #123
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Evidence? You want evidence? I'll put up 100 units, you can even name the denomination. (USD,CDN, AUD, peso, quid, baht, yen, etc) Any monies to be exchanged shall be forwarded to CruisersForums.com, or to the hands of the or an administrators or an administrator of this webpage. Such decision will solely reside with and to the aforementioned administrator(s).

The rules are you post whatever you have in your hand. I call. I'll even let the illustrious CF gang be the judge of who wins. That's how sure I am.

You say climate change is wholly man made. Do I have that right? If not, please explain your side of the debate in your own terms. Do not post links, I want to hear your own cogent argument for your side.

In debate, I will argue my side and without posting links to other webpages, blogs, or other. My argument will consist of my own words. To be clear, my side is that climate change is wholly independent of man-made artifice. Further, whatever climatic change on a global scale has come about is not, repeat not, significantly derived from, resultant of, numerically based upon, and or, incumbent upon the manifestations of man, ie, humans. Are there any words or terms here which you require further definition?

This is a direct challenge to you either to put up or shut up. Let the merriement commence. Either you or I have 100 units withdrawn from our accounts as decided by a largely biased CF contingent. I remind you, it is a contingent biased in your behalf.

There is no time limit. I am sorry to say this but even given the rapidity of the internet there still must be time allowed for each of us to put together a proper response to the other. I don't measure my life according to the internet and I suspect you do not either. Therefore, proper consideration shall be afforded to each of us in this debate.

Do we have a deal?

By answering in the affirmative you are entering into a legally binding contract. While no legal action will be taken towards you by me, by your acceptance you agree to pay the afore stated sum to the administrators of this web page. You may choose to decline as you are entitled. This contract shall extend only to the parties known as Sneuman and Richard5.
Sorry, I don't bet with fools. The evidence is all over this thread and you've managed to ignore it thus far. Why would I think that you'd suddenly have a change of heart when it comes to reason and logic?

Thomas Paine said it best: "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:54   #124
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

As others have already pointed out, having a warming climate AND also having increased snowfall (in certain areas) is not a contradiction. If you will review the maps you maligned in post #1 you will see that by the end of this century great swaths of the tropics and the temperate areas are expected to be much dryer than they are now. However, much of Alaska, Canada,and northern Russia will be significantly wetter. Since the higher latitudes will still be relatively cool, even with a general warming of the climate, that increased precipitation will often fall as heavy snowfall, not rain.

You may recall some parts of Alaska getting record-setting snowfalls recently (18'/storm IIRC), while much of the rest of the US was having a mild winter. No contradiction at all. Much as the climate models are predicting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Scoobert, I'm afraid you don't understand how this game is played. While climate models all predicted accelerating temperatures, by readjusting the models retrospectively, those models now demonstrate that no warming is in fact, caused by warming. Simple really.

A great example of how whatever happens climatically, AGW enthusiasts will claim it is a result of global warming is snowfall.

Here is what the IPCC said about snowfall in 2007: “The lowest winter temperatures are likely to increase more than average winter temperature in northern Europe. …The duration of the snow season is very likely to shorten in all of Europe, and snow depth is likely to decrease in at least most of Europe.”

With record snowfalls in Europe (Tragedy unfolding in Europe - Is U.S. media trying to ignore it?), here is what Skeptical Science (AGW fan club) has to say about snowfall and global warming:

What the science says...
To claim that record snowfall is inconsistent with a warming world betrays a lack of understanding of the link between global warming and extreme precipitation. Warming causes more moisture in the air which leads to more extreme precipitation events. This includes more heavy snowstorms in regions where snowfall conditions are favourable. Far from contradicting global warming, record snowfall is predicted by climate models and consistent with our expectation of more extreme precipitation events.


So you see, global warming causes more total winter snow, and also less total winter snow. So, whatever happens it is due to global warming, hence the touching confidence of so many on this thread of these model's veracity.

If it warms, it's because of global warming. If it doesn't warm, that also is because of global warming. When the next ice age begins, that will also be because of global warming. Wonderful model.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:57   #125
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
It never ceases to amaze me the intelligence, eloquence and scientific knowhow, posters on this Cruising Forum possess. And I mean that in the most complimentary way! I related just one experience that one of my sons had teaching high school science recently and it illicited many insightful retorts, none of them rude, but well thought out, cogent observations. I must say, I've learned more about global warming, climate change, AGW (I even know what that stands for now!), the 'hockey stick' theory and many other climate change terms and trends. Thank you all for the lessons!
There appears to be consensus that something is happening, the causes are up for debate but man and his contribution to his environment has something to do with it, what and how much appears up for debate but the believers seem to outrank the deniers.
Because I no longer live aboard rather in the high Sierra, my interest in the weather is still high but has a bit of a different focus.
I don't think there are many non-scientific sources like CF where we can get the kind of unvarnished opinion along with scientific data to back much of it up regardless which side of the issue you choose to support.
I'm just thankful we have CF as a tool to allow us to freely discuss, agree, disagree and learn about what appears to me to be a complex subject that affects all of us. Kudos to the Moderators who allow the discussion to roam free and let us wheel around moving the ditches at the sides of the road if it helps the dialogue continue. Cheers, All... Phil
Yeah.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:59   #126
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

i will sit on my bow watching all you as you scream yet again that t he sky is falling even as the water rises around your bunkbeds and computer stand......

might wanna buy uphill now, while there is still a hill to live on top of......
or grow gills......


one positive thing---as your gills grow,and you progress, you will be able to see each other in darkness as radiation fills the entire pacific ocean rendering it unfit to sal and forcing laws about venturing out of port.....

oh, yeah--the ports all sank suddenly without warning into the deep ocean never to be seen again...

we have known since 1958.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:59   #127
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Trees love C02... they need it to survive. So if we all plant a few more trees, the problem will be solved. Isn't it obvious?
That's the solution!

Everybody please plant 4 billion trees each. Who will volunteer to plant theirs on the roof of every Walmart in the country? (incl. the parking lots).

Please see kenomac to be reimbursed for your gas and expenses.


Folks who drive Prius can enter the contest to see who can pack the most seedlings in their trunk.

Second prize goes to the denier with the most tightly closed mind.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:01   #128
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Sorry, I don't bet with fools. The evidence is all over this thread and you've managed to ignore it thus far. Why would I think that you'd suddenly have a change of heart when it comes to reason and logic?

Thomas Paine said it best: "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
Then it is agreed, if tacitly, that you go on thinking your way and I mine. The quote you posted...don't be surprised when it is staring you in the mirror. I'm not one to tell you I told you so. It's not me being bigger or badder (acknowledgment given to some other poster on CF) but it is me knowing more than something about climate modeling.

In any case, fair winds.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:05   #129
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
That's the solution!

Everybody please plant 4 billion trees each. Who will volunteer to plant theirs on the roof of every Walmart in the country? (incl. the parking lots).

Please see kenomac to be reimbursed for your gas and expenses.


Folks who drive Prius can enter the contest to see who can pack the most seedlings in their trunk.

Second prize goes to the denier with the most tightly closed mind.
Hold on a gosh darn minute. You mean the more than 2,000 trees (a real number) I've planted are for naught because I drove my v-8 engine to the site?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:09   #130
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i will sit on my bow watching all you as you scream yet again that t he sky is falling even as the water rises around your bunkbeds and computer stand......

might wanna buy uphill now, while there is still a hill to live on top of......
or grow gills......


one positive thing---as your gills grow,and you progress, you will be able to see each other in darkness as radiation fills the entire pacific ocean rendering it unfit to sal and forcing laws about venturing out of port.....

oh, yeah--the ports all sank suddenly without warning into the deep ocean never to be seen again...

we have known since 1958.
but what anchor should we use?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:15   #131
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
As others have already pointed out, having a warming climate AND also having increased snowfall (in certain areas) is not a contradiction. If you will review the maps you maligned in post #1 you will see that by the end of this century great swaths of the tropics and the temperate areas are expected to be much dryer than they are now. However, much of Alaska, Canada,and northern Russia will be significantly wetter. Since the higher latitudes will still be relatively cool, even with a general warming of the climate, that increased precipitation will often fall as heavy snowfall, not rain.

You may recall some parts of Alaska getting record-setting snowfalls recently (18'/storm IIRC), while much of the rest of the US was having a mild winter. No contradiction at all. Much as the climate models are predicting.
You speak of forecasts which extend about 90 yrs into the future. Such things have been proffered before. That is the thing, man thinks he knows all and with such confidence he predicts the future. This is nothing new. And man has time and again been proven wrong in his predictions. This too is nothing new. Don't be so flat footed as to fall for everything with comes around.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:17   #132
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i will sit on my bow watching all you as you scream yet again that t he sky is falling even as the water rises around your bunkbeds and computer stand......
But, no bunk bed or computer stand.. I'll probably be in one of my adopted 'offices', Starbucks or McDonalds. Now I have something new to worry about!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
might wanna buy uphill now, while there is still a hill to live on top of......
or grow gills......
No going back to the hard. And, I can't be reasonably expected to grow gills. What to do, what to do?! Same I always try to do. Keep my boat right side up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
one positive thing---as your gills grow,and you progress, you will be able to see each other in darkness as radiation fills the entire pacific ocean rendering it unfit to sal and forcing laws about venturing out of port.....
Won't grow gills, but good point about the radiation. News in NYT today about emmissions from Fukishima nuk plant much higher than thought. Only 3 hours necessary to kill anyone exposed to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
oh, yeah--the ports all sank suddenly without warning into the deep ocean never to be seen again...
Whoopie! No more port fees!


we have known since 1958.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:20   #133
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Since the Sun, Volcanos and deep ocean hot water spouts are the largest contributing factors to an increase in global temperature, why don't you do something about those?

Please let us know how that works out.
The last few decades the sun's output has been dropping a bit, yet global temperatures are hitting record levels (last few 1000 years). I already covered that in post #28. In particular, please note Figure 1.

Volcanoes, very little unless super-huge, and then mostly resulting in atmospheric cooling from aerosols reflecting sunlight, not warming from extra CO2. See links below.

Deep ocean hot water spouts -- not even a blip on the radar screen.

From the US Geological Survey web site

Volcanic Gases and Climate Change Overview

Volcanic eruptions temporarily reduce the effects of global warming(the volcanic aerosols quickly get washed out of the atmosphere)


Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity?

(humans, 100 to 1)

Volcanoes are not responsible for Global Warming
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:24   #134
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
Kenomac
Trees love C02... they need it to survive. So if we all plant a few more trees, the problem will be solved. Isn't it obvious?
That's the solution!

Everybody please plant 4 billion trees each. Who will volunteer to plant theirs on the roof of every Walmart in the country? (incl. the parking lots).

Please see kenomac to be reimbursed for your gas and expenses.


Folks who drive Prius can enter the contest to see who can pack the most seedlings in their trunk.

Second prize goes to the denier with the most tightly closed mind.
Just like sneuman... you edit out the top portion of the post in an attempt to make me look foolish. Others can see thru this sort of garbage. Nice try.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:26   #135
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Re: Climate Change, Deux

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
The last few decades the sun's output has been dropping a bit, yet global temperatures are hitting record levels (last few 1000 years). I already covered that in post #28. In particular, please note Figure 1.

Volcanoes, very little unless super-huge, and then mostly resulting in atmospheric cooling from aerosols reflecting sunlight, not warming from extra CO2. See links below.

Deep ocean hot water spouts -- not even a blip on the radar screen.

From the US Geological Survey web site

Volcanic Gases and Climate Change Overview

Volcanic eruptions temporarily reduce the effects of global warming(the volcanic aerosols quickly get washed out of the atmosphere)


Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity?

(humans, 100 to 1)

Volcanoes are not responsible for Global Warming
Man, I appreciate your ability to find facts. But some comments people make are more easily ignored or simply put away.
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