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Old 10-08-2013, 00:29   #121
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Re: Climate Change

I'll adapt by wearing less clothing, putting on more sunscreen, sailing more often and enjoying the warmer weather wearing sunglasses.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:07   #122
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Re: Climate Change

Well, pardon me if I accept two independent panels over some guy who has a financial stake in perpetuating a false story.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:13   #123
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Re: Climate Change

Jackdale beat me to several good points. Thanks.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:39   #124
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Re: Climate Change

Let me sum up climate change like this.

Uno:
If i am being paid $100,000 a year for researching the flying spaghetti monster, after i had a PHD in monster study, and could only get a job in this field.... then why would i ever say there is no flying spaghetti monster?

Part duex:
In the 1800's a volcano went kaboom. It snowed in July in MA, USA. This requires a long time to recover from.

Part drei:
The north west passage has been wide open before. Long before we were contributing 0.5% of the CO2 on a yearly basis.

Part quad:
As CO2 increases, green life grows better, and in turn, uses more CO2. As a horrid side effect, produce more food (we all know enviro's hate people).

So to sum up, climate change is fake, CO2 increases are good for the earth, there is nothing we as people can do to slow, or stop temperature swings. because it will swing back.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:52   #125
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by scoobert View Post
Let me sum up climate change like this.

Uno:
If i am being paid $100,000 a year for researching the flying spaghetti monster, after i had a PHD in monster study, and could only get a job in this field.... then why would i ever say there is no flying spaghetti monster?

Part duex:
In the 1800's a volcano went kaboom. It snowed in July in MA, USA. This requires a long time to recover from.

Part drei:
The north west passage has been wide open before. Long before we were contributing 0.5% of the CO2 on a yearly basis.

Part quad:
As CO2 increases, green life grows better, and in turn, uses more CO2. As a horrid side effect, produce more food (we all know enviro's hate people).

So to sum up, climate change is fake, CO2 increases are good for the earth, there is nothing we as people can do to slow, or stop temperature swings. because it will swing back.

Uno: This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. A hypothesis is developed, tested, either stands or doesn't based on scrutiny, possibly becomes a theory, etc. etc.

Part 2: Huh?
Part 3: When has it been nearly ice-free as now? Evidence?
Part 4: Another example of the mutually exclusive "global warming is false, but if it's true, it's a good thing" argument.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:56   #126
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
... says the man who presents no evidence to back his claims.
lol
You cannot prove a negative.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:04   #127
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
This is simple, on one side there is heresay, conspiracy theory and politically driven babble. On the other side is a near-consensus among folks who've actually looked at the data.

Whether you care to be concerned about the "problem" (or to believe it is a problem at all) is entirely up to you. But the fact that the climate is changing is NOT in dispute.
I don't think anyone is disputing that the climate is changing. It was changing before we got here, and will be changing long after we are all dead.

The issue, is
1. whether things man has done has changed it.
2. whether there was anything we could have done about it if we tried
3. whether there is anything we can do about it now
4. whether the developing third world (about two billion people) would be amenable to foregoing the standard of living we have, based on our assertion that for them to do so would make things worse for us
5. how many of the people who are pushing man made climate change change, have a financial interest in it (i.e. Al Gore).

Al Gore is certainly the the most transparent man made climate change huckster out there right now, but he is not the only one. A lot of them have more sense than to fly around in Lear Jets and live in 10,000 square foot homes, while telling us we are the problem and they are the solution, but they are not any different from him otherwise.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:48   #128
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing that the climate is changing. It was changing before we got here, and will be changing long after we are all dead.

The issue, is
1. whether things man has done has changed it.
2. whether there was anything we could have done about it if we tried
3. whether there is anything we can do about it now
4. whether the developing third world (about two billion people) would be amenable to foregoing the standard of living we have, based on our assertion that for them to do so would make things worse for us
5. how many of the people who are pushing man made climate change change, have a financial interest in it (i.e. Al Gore).

Al Gore is certainly the the most transparent man made climate change huckster out there right now, but he is not the only one. A lot of them have more sense than to fly around in Lear Jets and live in 10,000 square foot homes, while telling us we are the problem and they are the solution, but they are not any different from him otherwise.
See, this is just it. part of the time they deny it's happening at all and part of the time they just deny that humans have any effect. They can't decide, which is a sure sign that their position is based more on politics and emotion than logic.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:56   #129
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The Dutch are not so sanguine about saving Miami. How long is "plenty of time"?
Would it be such a loss to lose Miami :-)

Anyway, given that the Dutch build not just one city, but a whole prosperous industrious nation in what is essentially a swamp, I think it ought to be possible. Right now I'm on my way to Zeeland, to my parents' holiday home (and sailboat :-). That place is built in what were still tidal mud flats when I was born...
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Old 10-08-2013, 07:08   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post

Uno: This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. A hypothesis is developed, tested, either stands or doesn't based on scrutiny, possibly becomes a theory, etc. etc.
That sounds so enlightened but if you think academics don't get deeply invested in a mindset - well, read Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions.
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Old 10-08-2013, 07:36   #131
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Re: Climate Change

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That sounds so enlightened but if you think academics don't get deeply invested in a mindset - well, read Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions.
Think about it. It's not a single, or even a group of individuals -- science is a process. If the hypothesis doesn't stand scrutiny, there's no hiding it for long. Competition? Of course. If you have hypothesis A and I have hypothesis B, each that attempt to explain the same thing, I have a compelling interest in proving mine right and in knocking yours down.

That's how all great discoveries have been made and it's the reason you're alive now instead of dead and forgotten from smallpox or whooping cough or bird flu.

This idea that climate change is some huge money grab for the scientists is ridiculous. If you really want to follow the money (BIG money), ask yourself who gains by convincing the public that climate change isn't real.
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Old 10-08-2013, 07:37   #132
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Re: Climate Change

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobert View Post
Let me sum up climate change like this.

Uno:
If i am being paid $100,000 a year for researching the flying spaghetti monster, after i had a PHD in monster study, and could only get a job in this field.... then why would i ever say there is no flying spaghetti monster?

Part duex:
In the 1800's a volcano went kaboom. It snowed in July in MA, USA. This requires a long time to recover from.

Part drei:
The north west passage has been wide open before. Long before we were contributing 0.5% of the CO2 on a yearly basis.

Part quad:
As CO2 increases, green life grows better, and in turn, uses more CO2. As a horrid side effect, produce more food (we all know enviro's hate people).

So to sum up, climate change is fake, CO2 increases are good for the earth, there is nothing we as people can do to slow, or stop temperature swings. because it will swing back.
wow, don't ever get into engineering

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Old 10-08-2013, 08:39   #133
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by pathlesschosen View Post
The earth enjoys dynamic meta stable equilibriums. And yes, scientists do disagree. We don't take the disagreement too personal. All part of the process.

Is the climate changing, yes. However, climate models are problematic as we do not understand the reaction of natural feedback mechanisms. Learning but not there yet.

Anybody who suggests they understand climate change doesn't know how little we understand. Those with the answers tend to be "social scientists", politicians, grant writers, or laymen.
Are we to assume you are a scientist who studies climate change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobert View Post
Let me sum up climate change like this.

Uno:
If i am being paid $100,000 a year for researching the flying spaghetti monster, after i had a PHD in monster study, and could only get a job in this field.... then why would i ever say there is no flying spaghetti monster?

Part duex:
In the 1800's a volcano went kaboom. It snowed in July in MA, USA. This requires a long time to recover from.

Part drei:
The north west passage has been wide open before. Long before we were contributing 0.5% of the CO2 on a yearly basis.

Part quad:
As CO2 increases, green life grows better, and in turn, uses more CO2. As a horrid side effect, produce more food (we all know enviro's hate people).

So to sum up, climate change is fake, CO2 increases are good for the earth, there is nothing we as people can do to slow, or stop temperature swings. because it will swing back.
I feel much better now that some guy named scoobert cleared this up for me. I'm off to buy a Ford Expedition and trade in my sailboat for a stink pot.

Quote:
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wow, don't ever get into engineering

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Old 10-08-2013, 08:54   #134
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Re: Climate Change

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Well, pardon me if I accept two independent panels over some guy who has a financial stake in perpetuating a false story.
Like the University of Pennsylvania investigation?
"Penn State has received at least $4,166,168 in funding involving ClimateGate figure Michael Mann"
Like they were really going to burn the cash cow while the global warming research money was flowing in.

"Records indicate that they interviewed Mann for “nearly two hours”, and he disclaimed all allegations. The committee requested that Mann produce all e-mails in his possession related to AR4. These were obviously intended to include all that Jones suggested he delete. In other words, he was asked to furnish any evidence against himself under an honor system."-Forbes

BTW I wouldn't trust Exxon's results of an investigation of one their own petroleum engineers accused of some wrong doing either.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:06   #135
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Re: Climate Change

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Like the University of Pennsylvania investigation?
"Penn State has received at least $4,166,168 in funding involving ClimateGate figure Michael Mann"
Like they were really going to burn the cash cow while the global warming research money was flowing in.

"Records indicate that they interviewed Mann for “nearly two hours”, and he disclaimed all allegations. The committee requested that Mann produce all e-mails in his possession related to AR4. These were obviously intended to include all that Jones suggested he delete. In other words, he was asked to furnish any evidence against himself under an honor system."-Forbes

BTW I wouldn't trust Exxon's results of an investigation of one their own petroleum engineers accused of some wrong doing either.
And don't forget the National Science Foundation's conclusion:

"The research in question was originally completed over 10 years ago. Although the Subject’s data is still available and still the focus of significant critical examination, no direct evidence has been presented that indicates the Subject fabricated the raw data he used for his research or falsified his results."

As James Fallows wrote in the Atlantic:

"I go out of my way to mention this for several reasons. First, because a serious scientist has been vilified, without basis, mainly because his work bears on current politics. 'Oh, never mind' clearance from charges rarely gets as much publicity as the original charges themselves. The fact that every scientific body examining Mann’s behavior has exonerated him deserves publicity and emphasis."
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