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Old 18-08-2013, 19:29   #676
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Which of my statements are incorrect? The cost of windpower? EPA fining oil companies for not using cellulosic ethanol? Environmentalists goals/desires to minimize carbon fuel usage? Eastern Europe under socialism during the 1930s-50s? History repeating itself?

Was it something about Ayn Rand's "who is John Galt?" but maybe you did not read the book.
Actually I liked Atlas Shrugged quite a bit, although I think most people have a different take-away than I do.

Her Introduction to Objectivist Epistomology was a real bore.
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:39   #677
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Re: Climate Change

Following the money.....or So who REALLY has big bucks invested in influencing the climate change debate?

222 UNPAID advisors? Really? Unpaid? They must be VERY dedicated? Or, perhaps they are compensated else where for their efforts? How much would that add to the $4.7 million?

The Heartland Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
The Heartland Institute is an American conservative and libertarian[2] public policy think tank based in Chicago, which states that it advocates free market policies.[3][4][5][6] The Institute is designated as a 501(c)(3) non-profit by the Internal Revenue Service and has a full-time staff of 31,[7] including editors and senior fellows,[8] as well as 222 unpaid policy advisors.[9] Heartland's 990 form in 2011[10] reported revenues of $4.7 million. The Institute was founded in 1984 and conducts research and advocacy work on issues including government spending, taxation, healthcare, education, tobacco policy, hydraulic fracturing[11] global warming, information technology, and free-market environmentalism.
In the 1990s, the group worked with the tobacco company Philip Morris to question serious cancer risks to secondhand smoke, and to lobby against government public-health reforms.[12][13][14] More recently, the Institute has focused on questioning the science of human-caused climate change, and was described by the New York Times as "the primary American organization pushing climate change skepticism."[15] The Institute has sponsored meetings of climate change skeptics,[16] and has been reported to promote public school curricula challenging the scientific consensus on human-caused climate change.[17]
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:40   #678
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Actually I liked Atlas Shrugged quite a bit, although I think most people have a different take-away than I do.

Her Introduction to Objectivist Epistomology was a real bore.
Geez, your one up on me! Atlas was a fine book but Ayn used too many words. The book could easily have been reduced from over 1100 pages to under 500. I thought I would remember her for that work only.
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:42   #679
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I am sorry to disagree Dave, only an environmentalist would feel dehumanized when his gospel is challenged. In this Country there is strong media bias along with organized environmentalists attempting to force expensive rules and regulations onto the general public. There are groups who wish nothing better than to see all carbon fuels eliminated while believing they are saving Mother Earth. Because their radical goal is not achievable, they next attempt to substitute raising the cost of all fuels under the guise of goodness. Consider the EPA's fines on oil companies for not using unavailable cellulosic ethanol. If they can make carbon fuels too expensive, carbon fuels will become unaffordable thereby forcing constraints on usage through economics .

Even though windpower costs today range between 3-4 times that of gas fired electrical power generation it is looked as a salvation to environmentalist. But those costs are fictitious because government subsidies are not considered. For every watt generated by wind, there must be a comparable backup via generator waiting for when the wind is not there.

Cost does mean something to me! Cost does mean something to my tenants who presently have great difficulty paying for food and clothing. Sure, maybe government should provide free housing, free food, free clothing, free everything while today it borrows over 40 cents on every buck it spends. And even with fiats, that should mean something. Yes, the elites have no financial worries. Costs be damned, full spending ahead.

I am old enough to remember how socialist countries failed and wise enough to know that history does repeat itself. I for one do not want our Country to suffer the ravages history witnessed in eastern Europe not many years ago.

There are formidable obstacles to controlling nature's atmosphere, both related to nature itself and to forcing such control onto hundreds of millions of poor and impoverished world peoples. In the king's vernacular, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN GUY! OH and Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged was ahead of its times.

Foggysail
Foggy there's only Fox News here not facts

Environmentalists are different to Climate change science , its not the same

Burning hydrocarbons has to stop , and tax is a good way to do it

Taxing dirty hydrocarbons enforces efficiency , what's wrong with the that

Renewables are no dearer if you look at the true cost of hydrocarbons

"I am old enough to remember how socialist countries failed and wise enough to know that history does repeat itself. I for one do not want our Country to suffer the ravages history witnessed in eastern Europe not many years ago."

Oh please this is one step up from " reds under the beds " really grow up and stop using " socialism" as the fault everything , its just -McCarthy-ism in another guise. , ie brand things " socialist" the rest of the world is laughing at this.

What's going on here Foggy , is the dying days of " your " argument . In the 80s the pro smoking lobbyists tried to fight the science , that failed , then they tried pseudo science , ( ie false or mis applied science that seemed right to joe public , but was rejected scientifically ) now the remnants of pro smoking are trying , the nanny state , loss of personal freedom , nay Socialism.

That's failing too

Exactly where are with CC , the science arguments are over , the false science is nearly over , and the deniers ( almost all in the US) are trying the old McCarthy trick ( just like ." socialised" healthcare , a term not used anywhere else in the world) t


The poor and the impoverished are not the problem , Foggy , the west is and especially the US. , followed by china , the poor tend not to own SUVs or A/C units.

Dave
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:43   #680
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Re: Climate Change

HPEER--Will try to follow/read your pointer tomorrow night. Getting late and busy day starting in the morning

Foggy
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:47   #681
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Re: Climate Change

There were a number of posters who questioned the issue of oceans warming.

They may want to take a look at this chart showing temperatures at different depths over the last half century. Of concern is the large increase in recent years.



Ocean Heat Content from 0 to 300 meters (grey), 700 m (blue), and total depth (violet) from Ocean Reanalysis System 4.
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:48   #682
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Geez, your one up on me! Atlas was a fine book but Ayn used too many words. The book could easily have been reduced from over 1100 pages to under 500. I thought I would remember her for that work only.
Actually it was the best sleeping aid I ever had. Gave up after seventh try. Either abandon the attempt or risk a permanent catatonic state.



In truth I found all of her popular books only rehashed the same ground. I recommend folks only read Reardon's soliloquy//rant ( IIRC) and maybe the first two and last two chapters.

I was damn near run out of my humanist group for liking her. There too many had not read her, or understood her in the way I did. But I grew up poor doing piece work.
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Old 18-08-2013, 19:51   #683
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Which statements are incorrect? The cost of windpower? EPA fining oil companies for not using cellulosic ethanol? Environmentalists goals/desires to minimize carbon fuel usage? Eastern Europe under socialism during the 1930s-60s? History repeating itself?

Was it something about Ayn Rand's "who is John Galt?" but maybe you did not read the book.
Actually all are wrong foggy

Wind power on a properly compared basis is similar to hydrocarbons, the hydrocarbon industry has huge hidden subsidies, wind power has other issues , pricing isn't one of them

Whether ethanol should be in gasoline is a different debate. , overall reductions in consumption of hydrocarbons should be enforced by taxation policy , promoting more efficient cars and penalising inefficient use

Minimising carbon is good , there are huge levels of it in the atmosphere put there by man , that can't be good no matter what ,

Eastern Europe was no more socialist then Vermont , the changes ( it didn't fall ) were as much about political change , mass media and a globalised world. Essentially an attempt to create a closed order in an increasing smaller interconnected world

The UK, Germany , France , Scandinavia are essentially centre left Social Democracies , there that word you hate again

Ayn Rnd thankfully stuck to fiction , attempts to get her policies elected failed , remember.

Dave
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:04   #684
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Foggy there's only Fox News here not facts

Environmentalists are different to Climate change science , its not the same

Burning hydrocarbons has to stop , and tax is a good way to do it

Taxing dirty hydrocarbons enforces efficiency , what's wrong with the that

Renewables are no dearer if you look at the true cost of hydrocarbons

"I am old enough to remember how socialist countries failed and wise enough to know that history does repeat itself. I for one do not want our Country to suffer the ravages history witnessed in eastern Europe not many years ago."

Oh please this is one step up from " reds under the beds " really grow up and stop using " socialism" as the fault everything , its just -McCarthy-ism in another guise. , ie brand things " socialist" the rest of the world is laughing at this.

What's going on here Foggy , is the dying days of " your " argument . In the 80s the pro smoking lobbyists tried to fight the science , that failed , then they tried pseudo science , ( ie false or mis applied science that seemed right to joe public , but was rejected scientifically ) now the remnants of pro smoking are trying , the nanny state , loss of personal freedom , nay Socialism.

That's failing too

Exactly where are with CC , the science arguments are over , the false science is nearly over , and the deniers ( almost all in the US) are trying the old McCarthy trick ( just like ." socialised" healthcare , a term not used anywhere else in the world) t


The poor and the impoverished are not the problem , Foggy , the west is and especially the US. , followed by china , the poor tend not to own SUVs or A/C units.

Dave

Dave it is getting late so my response will lack the "meat" I prefer to supply. My response was directly addressing

"Its really its sad and bordering on the idiotic , for certain contributors to start this nonsense about socialism and greenies , etc etc. it really cheapens the debate , attempts to dehumanise certain s groups and is devoid of any facts "

To the contrary, socialism and greenies were correctly addressed in my post. They are part of the problem, not the solution.

And Eastern Europe conditions being compared to Joe McCarthy-ism? Get real! McCarthy over did his search and paid a price for it in the US Senate. Eastern Europe paid a price in blood. Hey, you live in Europe, are you trying to color that period to suit your current beliefs? Did you forget what happened during that period? I gave you credit for being well informed, am I mistaken??? We ---the United States-- damned near went to war during that period so don't try to tell me that Eastern Europe is a Joe McCarthy-ism!

Ahh taxing. Yes, you certainly have enough of it over there so why should not the people in the US be subjected to the same taxation??? This is getting close to "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs!"

And your needless blame, the US and China are in a carbon dioxide runaway mode???? REALLY, do you really mean that??

Maybe you missed

IPS – U.S. Sees Greatest Reduction in CO2 Emissions | Inter Press Service

What has Europe done beyond instituting a broken Cap & Trade mess?

Got to go, busy day tomorrow
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:07   #685
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
A lot that is attributed to climate change is easily explained by local variability.
That that would be what exactly?
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:15   #686
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Actually I liked Atlas Shrugged quite a bit, although I think most people have a different take-away than I do.
Ayn Rand worshiped egotistical, self-righteous bastards. She also appeals to them.

At one point in my life I was close to being an Objectivist. Bad literature, naive philosophy.
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:15   #687
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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post

Dave it is getting late so my response will lack the "meat" I prefer to supply. My response was directly addressing

"Its really its sad and bordering on the idiotic , for certain contributors to start this nonsense about socialism and greenies , etc etc. it really cheapens the debate , attempts to dehumanise certain s groups and is devoid of any facts "

To the contrary, socialism and greenies were correctly addressed in my post. They are part of the problem, not the solution.

And Eastern Europe conditions being compared to Joe McCarthy-ism? Get real! McCarthy over did his search and paid a price for it in the US Senate. Eastern Europe paid a price in blood. Hey, you live in Europe, are you trying to color that period to suit your current beliefs? Did you forget what happened during that period? I gave you credit for being well informed, am I mistaken??? We ---the United States-- damned near went to war during that period so don't try to tell me that Eastern Europe is a Joe McCarthy-ism!

Ahh taxing. Yes, you certainly have enough of it over there so why should not the people in the US be subjected to the same taxation??? This is getting close to "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs!"

And your needless blame, the US and China are in a carbon dioxide runaway mode???? REALLY, do you really mean that??

Maybe you missed

IPS – U.S. Sees Greatest Reduction in CO2 Emissions | Inter Press Service

What has Europe done beyond instituting a broken Cap & Trade mess?

Got to go, busy day tomorrow
Has there been a period when you didn't damm near go to war. !!!!!!

Just using a Right wing term like " Socislism" like a kind of bogey man is nonsense , and the rest of the thinking world isn't frightened

Not surprised at reduction in US co2 it has a long way to go.

"
Ahh taxing. Yes, you certainly have enough of it over there so why should not the people in the US be subjected to the same taxation??? This is getting close to "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs!""

The great thing about the " American dream" is that it got Americans to believe in it. , a bit more cynicism would be useful
US government spending , which all comes from tax , one way or a other is with 2-5% of the EU27. ... You have as much taxation as we do , its just in different places ( like to tell me about your property taxes foggy )

The EU has fuel taxation , mandated co2 reduction programmes , pollution control , etc. So does then US , by the way . But the uS consumes twice the energy ( and water) that Europeans do , yet the US does not actually have the highest standard of living. ( Norway does) , the US has a ways to go .

Its not a pissing contest. The issues are serious , we need to reduce pollution especially greenhouse gases. Socialism has nothing to do with it.

Dave
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:27   #688
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Re: Climate Change

[QUOTE=hpeer;1316246]Following the money.....or So who REALLY has big bucks invested in influencing the climate change debate?

222 UNPAID advisors? Really? Unpaid? They must be VERY dedicated? Or, perhaps they are compensated else where for their efforts? How much would that add to the $4.7 million?

Quote:
The following individuals are listed in the Heartland Institute's 2012 Proposed Budget, under the "Personnel Budget" for the NIPCC Project:

$/month Name Chapter Institution Country
$11,600 Craig Idso Senior Editor Center for the Study of CO2 & Global Change USA
$5,000 Fred Singer Co-Editor Science and Environmental Policy Project USA
$1,667 Robert Carter Co-Editor James Cook University and Institute for Public Affairs Australia
$1,000 Madhav Khandekar 1.3 Extreme Events Environment Canada Canada
$1,000 Indur Goklany** 2.5 Economics and Policy U.S. Department of Interior USA
$1,000 Robert Balling tentative Arizona State University USA
$750 Anthony Lupo 1.4 Climate Models University of Missouri USA
$750 Mitch Taylor 2.2 Terrestrial Animals Lakehead University Canada
$750 Susan Crockford 2.2 Terrestrial Animals University of Victoria Australia
$500 Joe D'Aleo 1.3 Extreme Events ICECAP USA
$125 Willie Soon contributor - paid by review Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics USA
$125 Craig Loehle contributor - paid by review National Council for Air and Stream Improvement USA
$125 David Watkins contributor - paid by review Michigan Technological University USA
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:29   #689
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Re: Climate Change

Foggy/ GBN.... you guys are getting real close to the line on the Be Nice Rule... Step back, take a breath and then post...please!
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Old 18-08-2013, 20:41   #690
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Has there been a period when you didn't damm near go to war. !!!!!!

Just using a Right wing term like " Socislism" like a kind of bogey man is nonsense , and the rest of the thinking world isn't frightened

Not surprised at reduction in US co2 it has a long way to go.

"
Ahh taxing. Yes, you certainly have enough of it over there so why should not the people in the US be subjected to the same taxation??? This is getting close to "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs!""

The great thing about the " American dream" is that it got Americans to believe in it. , a bit more cynicism would be useful
US government spending , which all comes from tax , one way or a other is with 2-5% of the EU27. ... You have as much taxation as we do , its just in different places ( like to tell me about your property taxes foggy )

The EU has fuel taxation , mandated co2 reduction programmes , pollution control , etc. So does then US , by the way . But the uS consumes twice the energy ( and water) that Europeans do , yet the US does not actually have the highest standard of living. ( Norway does) , the US has a ways to go .

Its not a pissing contest. The issues are serious , we need to reduce pollution especially greenhouse gases. Socialism has nothing to do with it.

Dave
This will be very short, just showered and ready for bed.


Quoted from above:

"Has there been a period when you didn't damm near go to war. !!!!!!?

Why yes, David there was a time when we enjoyed piece. Remember 1939? YOUR country was at war and we wanted no part of it. When Roosevelt sighed the Lend/Lease program he was worried about impeachment.
Then Churchill came over and Roosevelt came across. But I forgot, you are from the younger generation, history is not your strong subject.

And when Hitler declared war on us, Churchill celebrated knowing his England would survive!

Just maybe we could have enjoyed a better economy during the post war period if Europe paid for its own defense, something very long overdue. The time has come for my Country to get out of the WAR BUSINESS, close overseas bases. Time for Europe to get serious about defending themselves.

By the way, how many European aircraft carriers are there? two---three??? You get the idea!
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