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Old 15-08-2013, 15:03   #541
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Re: Climate Change

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I've done the math.
I have to disagree with you there. It comes out to roughly 2 orders of magnitude, a 100 times more energy, than is currently being produced if the planet goes to 10 billion in 50 years.

That is 100 times more CO2 per year than we are now producing.

Lake-Effect, you better start working on developing some "unobtainium" if you want to dent this problem.
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Old 15-08-2013, 15:13   #542
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Re: Climate Change

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I never said that. If you insist on debating yourself, do it offline. Less typing.
When you figure this out, you will understand why your endless posts on this subject are not getting any traction (and then you can call Al Gore and tell him, because he doesn't get it either).
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Old 15-08-2013, 15:33   #543
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Re: Climate Change

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(...) Efficiency would also make us more competitive in the future, if that matters to anyone.
It matters to those who think there will be any "us" in the future.

It matters too to those who assume the future will be about efficiency.

Last but not least anyone mostly avoids doing things that matter, anyone is a pleasure seeker, penalty avoider.

If I were to preach or penalise, I would penalize. Because of its efficiency.

b.
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Old 15-08-2013, 15:56   #544
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Re: Climate Change

We are the peer group that can and do add to the solution. There are plenty of people in and around your life who see what you do. You've got this boat. You climb aboard and seek adventure. You appear to be completely off the grid and independent, (we know that’s not so, but it's close to being so). Your life is enhanced and has meaning because of the advanced choices you have made. Folks envy you for demonstrating the courage to go your own way. That's what motivates people. Envy. "If he can do it why can't I". Imagine if your house was as off the grid as your boat. Imagine if every house in the US , south of 35 degree N. had a solar hot water panel connected to their hot water system. Have meaningful (25-50%) tax incentives for those who buy and install systems, if the systems where built in the US. Sell it so we/they would want to keep up with the Joneses. What would be the savings in NG/Elec? Or some gizmo in every electronic device that would shut it off 100% after 1 hour of not being touched. Or we tie your gasoline price to the HP and weight of the car. There is no magic pill. As someone has just said, “you eat an elephant bit by bit”. One can't make cancer just go away. It comes on one cell at a time, and if it goes away, it goes, one cell at a time. The same is true off all problems. Handle today and tomorrow takes care of itself. Because I can't deposit $100k in by bank account today, doesn't mean there's no point in saving. Save 10% of every $ you make and the future becomes incrementally/exponentially brighter. There are literally thousands of things to do today, now, about these issues. On a personal scale, a national scale and on a global scale. Rein in big business, vote with your money. You’re already doing it and demonstrating it for others to see and emulate. Whether there is or is not Climate change, whether ones has or does not have cancer,(and each and every one of us has cancer, right now) makes no difference whatsoever. There is the right thing and the right way to do what is before you. We've been on the path of fear and cowardice for so long we've become used to it, it's become the American way. We come up with infantile, weak, bitter, and foolish notions in order to protect our positions of denial. Stand up. Clean up your own back yard. Tell your neighbor to put the beer down for ten minutes and clean up his ****. Stop acting as if we live in two different countries, call your rep and tell them to get the job done. Turn the game off. Set a budget. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Correct your children. Walk. Eat less. (I heard Rush on the radio the other day talking about how all that vegan stuff is just a bunch of BS. "I eat whatever I want" yes indeed he does, fat slob. Same with Michael Moore. These are our/your leader's?) It's f--king embarrassing. If we as a nation stood up, as we have done in our past history, marshaled our common sense and collective energy and ingenuity, stop with the passive aggressive snarky BS, we would once again lead the world to a brighter and more functional world. Don’t be a God damn coward! The ship is sinking, start bailing.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:18   #545
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Re: Climate Change

I think what Krogensailor is saying here is that America would be better to return to mores of it's Puritan forbears. That is people of simple but adequate lifestyles without the waste occasioned by excessive grandiosity (large gas guzzlers driven for show rather than utility etc).
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:21   #546
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Re: Climate Change

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I think what Krogensailor is saying here is that America would be better to return to mores of it's Puritan forbears. That is people of simple but adequate lifestyles without the waste occasioned by excessive grandiosity (large gas guzzlers driven for show rather than utility etc).
Yup, the folks who fled religious persecution, because there wasn't enough of that in Europe in 16th Century....at least not by them.

Of course later they did get into a position of power in England - and banned Xmas .

The Taliban? Lightweight copycats .
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:45   #547
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Re: Climate Change

Well there you go, I was under the impression that they were fleeing religious intolerance.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:53   #548
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Krogensailor View Post
You've got this boat. You climb aboard and seek adventure. You appear to be completely off the grid and independent, (we know that’s not so, but it's close to being so). Your life is enhanced and has meaning because of the advanced choices you have made. Folks envy you for demonstrating the courage to go your own way. That's what motivates people. Envy. "If he can do it why can't I".
I posted this quite some time ago in another thread (Newt's "The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply"), but since you bring it up Krogensailor I'll repost it here. Actively reducing my impact on this planet IS one of the driving forces behind our cruising plan. I don't have the energy to save the world, but perhaps by example we can show a different way...

***
Our cruising plans quite intentionally have a certain philosophical approach; CLAFC: Creativity, Learning, Adventure, Freedom & Cessation. Each of these terms expresses a world of ideas that are important for how me and my partner choose to live. We live with these ideas whether we are off wilderness sailing, or living on land.

Creativity is a life-giving view of the world. For me it means seeking new ways of doing things, and simply enjoying the aesthetic of the here and now.

Learning ... never stop learning. Living off the prescribed path is a great way to foster this.

Adventure comes in all forms, be it the big sail, or the small walk. I will never shatter records, discover new things, or challenge the gods of nature in any way, but I do enjoy poking into that unknown cove, or trying that weird looking vegetable.

Freedom drives much of what we do. To me freedom is the ability to do what I want, when I want. It's an ideal which is never full reached, but I can do some things to go toward the Form of Freedom. For me (and not necessarily for anyone else):
  • I avoid debt (b/c this is one of the ways our society keeps people chained to the treadmill).
  • Keep mechanical & electrical systems simple (b/c I'm not much of handyman).
  • And live inexpensively, (b/c I'm kinda lazy and don't like wage work).
Cessation is my active way of ceasing to be part of the problem. From over-consumption to financial greed, my society does great harm to the planet we all call home. I don't have the energy to try and save the world, but I can stop being part of the problem (at least to some degree).
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:19   #549
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Re: Climate Change

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When you figure this out, you will understand why your endless posts on this subject are not getting any traction (and then you can call Al Gore and tell him, because he doesn't get it either).

I'm sorry I have to explain this to you. You don't have clue #1 about what my lifestyle is (ok you have one, I like boats), or what personal action I've taken, or what I'm prepared to give up, if it would make things better.

Your jab at Al Gore puts you firmly on the Ignorant Troll side of the denier cheering section. Enjoy the view.
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:22   #550
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I posted this quite some time ago in another thread (Newt's "The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply"), but since you bring it up Krogensailor I'll repost it here. Actively reducing my impact on this planet IS one of the driving forces behind our cruising plan. I don't have the energy to save the world, but perhaps by example we can show a different way...

***
Our cruising plans quite intentionally have a certain philosophical approach; CLAFC: Creativity, Learning, Adventure, Freedom & Cessation. Each of these terms expresses a world of ideas that are important for how me and my partner choose to live. We live with these ideas whether we are off wilderness sailing, or living on land.

Creativity is a life-giving view of the world. For me it means seeking new ways of doing things, and simply enjoying the aesthetic of the here and now.

Learning ... never stop learning. Living off the prescribed path is a great way to foster this.

Adventure comes in all forms, be it the big sail, or the small walk. I will never shatter records, discover new things, or challenge the gods of nature in any way, but I do enjoy poking into that unknown cove, or trying that weird looking vegetable.

Freedom drives much of what we do. To me freedom is the ability to do what I want, when I want. It's an ideal which is never full reached, but I can do some things to go toward the Form of Freedom. For me (and not necessarily for anyone else):
  • I avoid debt (b/c this is one of the ways our society keeps people chained to the treadmill).
  • Keep mechanical & electrical systems simple (b/c I'm not much of handyman).
  • And live inexpensively, (b/c I'm kinda lazy and don't like wage work).
Cessation is my active way of ceasing to be part of the problem. From over-consumption to financial greed, my society does great harm to the planet we all call home. I don't have the energy to try and save the world, but I can stop being part of the problem (at least to some degree).
Love it!
We strive to do the same.

Edit: I just read your post out loud to my wife, and she wanted me to thank you too.
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:29   #551
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Re: Climate Change

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I have to disagree with you there. It comes out to roughly 2 orders of magnitude, a 100 times more energy, than is currently being produced if the planet goes to 10 billion in 50 years.

That is 100 times more CO2 per year than we are now producing.

Lake-Effect, you better start working on developing some "unobtainium" if you want to dent this problem.
You disagree that I've done the math?

Anyway this is wandering away from the main point - are our actions affecting the climate. So - yes or no?

What to do is a different question, and shouldn't affect how you answer the main question. It's Ok if you happen to think the problem is insoluble. It would be appreciated if you'd let the rest of us get on with it.

Lead, follow or get out of the way, as they say.
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:52   #552
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Re: Climate Change

Best thread ever!
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Old 15-08-2013, 20:52   #553
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Re: Climate Change

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I think what Krogensailor is saying here is that America would be better to return to mores of it's Puritan forbears. That is people of simple but adequate lifestyles without the waste occasioned by excessive grandiosity (large gas guzzlers driven for show rather than utility etc).
No, I didn't get any "let's go back to a simpler time" Puritan finger-shaking mores, from Krogensailor's post.

I think he's saying man up. In the genuine stop whining and blaming others, take charge, put down your toys, let's fix this, sort of way.

Quote:
There is the right thing and the right way to do what is before you. We've been on the path of fear and cowardice for so long we've become used to it, it's become the American way. We come up with infantile, weak, bitter, and foolish notions in order to protect our positions of denial.
Couldn't have said it better.
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Old 15-08-2013, 21:31   #554
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Re: Climate Change

Well there we go again. I thought that Puritanism was an unintended result of Martin Luther vandalizing a cathedral door with graffiti and a rebellion against both the spiritual corruption of the established church of the time and the material corruption of secular authorities as well.

My understanding was that some of these folks fled to Massachusetts and founded a colony there and some hung about and hooked up with Oliver Cromwell and started a monarchy head lopping movement.

Makes you wonder if the later rebellion against monarchical authority, the American rebellion - or as folk there like to describe it, revolution - would have occurred if the English branch of the club had retained power instead of the return of the Stuarts and all that secular corruption.

Just shows you how confused you can become listening to school teachers.
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Old 15-08-2013, 22:09   #555
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Re: Climate Change

The way I look at is, that if everyone could reduce their electricity by 30%, that would be a big amount, yet still wouldn't be a big impact on the quality of their lives. It might even improve them.

It shouldn't cost that much either through better design, new technology, and efficiency.
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