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Old 12-08-2013, 13:36   #316
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and it's where "free" healthcare comes from .
Free healthcare doesn't exist. Doctors want to be paid everywhere.
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Old 12-08-2013, 14:02   #317
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Re: Climate Change

Fox News found to be a major driving force behind global warming denial | THE GUARDIAN

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A new study published in the journal Public Understanding of Science (PDF available here) surveyed a nationally representative sample of over 1,000 Americans in 2008 and 2011 about their media consumption and beliefs about climate change.



The results suggest that conservative media consumption (specifically Fox News and Rush Limbaugh) decreases viewer trust in scientists, which in turn decreases belief that global warming is happening. In contrast, consumption of non-conservative media (specifically ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, NPR, The New York Times, and The Washington Post) increases consumer trust in scientists, and in turn belief that global warming is happening.


The study also examined previous research on this issue and concluded that the conservative media creates distrust in scientists through five main methods:


1) Presenting contrarian scientists as "objective" experts while presenting mainstream scientists as self-interested or biased.
2) Denigrating scientific institutions and peer-reviewed journals.
3) Equating peer-reviewed research with a politically liberal opinion.
4) Accusing climate scientists of manipulating data to fund research projects.
5) Characterizing climate science as a religion...
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Old 12-08-2013, 15:09   #318
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Why trust scientists? Are they less human than the rest of us?
Put another way does your particular brand of brain washing make politicians more trustworthy?
Think for yourself. If you don't know enough about a subject, and must trust someone else then either educate yourself or find someone trustworthy. Bridge for sale!
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Old 12-08-2013, 15:13   #319
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Re: Climate Change

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Free healthcare doesn't exist. Doctors want to be paid everywhere.
That was the reason for the quotes.

Free at the point of delivery vs free at the point of payment ........it's just a group healthcare plan, and instead of writing a personal check it gets paid for at the gas station .....with the bonus that other folks get to suck up my risks and I theirs . Not going broke (or getting dead) through lack of healthcare is a nice thing to have - also nice that my neighbours don't suffer that fate either .
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Old 12-08-2013, 15:19   #320
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Re: Climate Change

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Why trust scientists? Are they less human than the rest of us?
Put another way does your particular brand of brain washing make politicians more trustworthy?
Think for yourself. If you don't know enough about a subject, and must trust someone else then either educate yourself or find someone trustworthy. Bridge for sale!
Speaking of bridges, why would anyone be so stupid as to trust a trained Civil Engineer? If you really want a reliable bridge, build it yourself.
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Old 12-08-2013, 15:28   #321
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The Planet will not "shake us off" , no more then it did on Easter Island. We can quite easily completely destroy it.

Dave
How do you know?

Sounds like more humanist 'oh but we're different...' with no evidence to suggest that at a species level we do anything but blindly stumble forward the same as every other species of animal. Recently tapping into a massive unsustainable free energy source which has allowed numbers to almost instantly rise to plague levels.

It's been close to extinction before.

Life my be impossible to eradicate before their sun blows up but historically most species are extinct. Wouldn't take much to get rid of us.
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Old 12-08-2013, 16:19   #322
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Re: Climate Change

Although we know that climate change is a controversial topic, let's make sure when we make comments, that we keep politics and personalities out of them.
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Old 12-08-2013, 16:40   #323
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How do you know?

Sounds like more humanist 'oh but we're different...' with no evidence to suggest that at a species level we do anything but blindly stumble forward the same as every other species of animal. Recently tapping into a massive unsustainable free energy source which has allowed numbers to almost instantly rise to plague levels.

It's been close to extinction before.

Life my be impossible to eradicate before their sun blows up but historically most species are extinct. Wouldn't take much to get rid of us.
Unlike other " species" we have intellect and self awareness. Our technology gives us tremendous power over nature , when's the last time you saw a dog write a letter.

Ascribing purely lower order animalistic traits , does not get us off the AGW hook. We're to blame and we'd better fix it. I see no prospect of emigrating to outside the solar system any day soon.

Dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 16:40   #324
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Although we know that climate change is a controversial topic, let's make sure when we make comments, that we keep politics and personalities out of them.
Its is not a controversial topic, there is an attempt by certain factions to present it so. That's different.

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Old 12-08-2013, 16:43   #325
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Re: Climate Change

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Well there's a summary of Tea oarty thinking , how'd they do in the recent election

Dave
We don't have a Tea Party down here mate, we are overun with loony lefties determined to turn us all back into cave people. You want real loony, what sort of people base their entire political system on the belief that you can distribute wealth before you create it?

Just ask yourself, what is the place going to look like if millions of people jump onto their horse drawn carts and goes out into the country to chop wood to cook with. The whole place will look like North Africa in no time. Like it or not we are stuck with the systems we have, the alternative being mass die off, so lets just get on with keeping the lights on and tucker on the table until we do reduce the population to sustainable levels and hopefully we can do it without too much human misery.

Oil companies are not required to be saintly, good Samaritans, they are commercial ventures with a responsibility to find and produce hydrocarbons as efficiently as possible whilst doing a minimum of damage. Their activities are ruled by masses of laws, rules, regulations and policies but occasionally they screw up - like in every other human endeavor. They are neither saintly or evil they are just like all the other commercial ventures it takes to create and run a modern civilization.
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Old 12-08-2013, 16:53   #326
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We don't have a Tea Party down here mate, we are overun with loony lefties determined to turn us all back into cave people. You want real loony, what sort of people base their entire political system on the belief that you can distribute wealth before you create it?

Just ask yourself, what is the place going to look like if millions of people jump onto their horse drawn carts and goes out into the country to chop wood to cook with. The whole place will look like North Africa in no time. Like it or not we are stuck with the systems we have, the alternative being mass die off, so lets just get on with keeping the lights on and tucker on the table until we do reduce the population to sustainable levels and hopefully we can do it without too much human misery.

Oil companies are not required to be saintly, good Samaritans, they are commercial ventures with a responsibility to find and produce hydrocarbons as efficiently as possible whilst doing a minimum of damage. Their activities are ruled by masses of laws, rules, regulations and policies but occasionally they screw up - like in every other human endeavor. They are neither saintly or evil they are just like all the other commercial ventures it takes to create and run a modern civilization.
How are you overrun with " looney lefties ".

Big business are commercial ventures, unfortunately they also lobby extensively both overtly and more importantly covertly to ensure that the status quo benefits them. They have not been proven to in any way morally ethical

" power corrupts ... Etc" which is why in a modern state we set limits , impose regulation and control such organisations , unfortunately at times , not effectively enough.

Population reduction is not the cure for world resources. Population reduction is a selfish ideology that suggests that the haves retain their consumption levels , while the have nots reduce theirs further.

The solution is that the hugely over consuming " first" world must reign in such consumption, and with it the attendant resource depletion and pollution.

What that's means in real life is driving 200 miles to see your granny , will be a thing of the past.

Dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 17:19   #327
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Re: Climate Change

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Why trust scientists? Are they less human than the rest of us?

Think for yourself. If you don't know enough about a subject, and must trust someone else then either educate yourself or find someone trustworthy. Bridge for sale!
Do you actually know what 'science' is? It's a process, a set of rules for advancing knowledge. When someone applies the scientific method, they are committing to understand the current body of knowledge in their field, to form testable theories that might further their (and our) understanding, to rigourously test those theories for both positive and negative results. If they are sufficiently confident that they have uncovered something of note, they submit their work to their peers who go over it with a fine toothed comb. If the work passes peer review, it may finally be considered as useful information or a valid conclusion, and we go on from there. Basically, science is our best tool for removing the human foibles as much as possible from the process of analysis and discovery. It's the best we got, folks...

So when over 95% of the qualified specialists in the climate field (... people who probably have studied in their field for 10 or more years) tell us something, it's f'ing idiotic to pretend that they're just some guys with an opinion or must have some sort of ulterior agenda, and that their conclusions are suspect because they're human too, maaan.


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Although we know that climate change is a controversial topic, let's make sure when we make comments, that we keep politics and personalities out of them.
The issue of climate change is fraught with politics (deliberately), like Marley's ghost with all his chains. Some people, on both sides, may hold an opinion motivated by their politics. But only one side has evidence behind it; the thought leaders on the other side just have willful ignorance. And a vested interest in the status quo, and lots and lots of money.

It's too important a topic to not be forceful about. It's a defining moment and we're blowing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR
Just ask yourself, what is the place going to look like if millions of people jump onto their horse drawn carts and goes out into the country to chop wood to cook with. The whole place will look like North Africa in no time. Like it or not we are stuck with the systems we have, the alternative being mass die off, so lets just get on with keeping the lights on and tucker on the table until we do reduce the population to sustainable levels and hopefully we can do it without too much human misery.
That is one of the fabricated arguments from the deniers - that the only possible solution is to fall back to some middle-age agrarian subsistence, and it just ain't so. We still have massive amounts of capital, resources and ability to tackle the many different problems we face. The solution is to move forward, not backwards. Oh and maybe not waste so bloody much stuff.

And there are 1000 reasons besides climate change for us to move forward. But the vested interests have successfully cast doubt on the conclusions and work of the very best people in the field. So we're stuck at the gate.

I have a better appreciation for what Copernicus and Aristotle went through when they dared suggest the earth moved around the sun.
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Old 12-08-2013, 17:36   #328
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Re: Climate Change

i have to say.. this was a good thread. lots of debate and argument.. . A good thread to blow off steam about the disagreement tnen walk away friends. if the mods would allow the grown responsible adults to debate the other one or two issues without believing they are somehow kindergarten teachers...

Climate change is a reality. how you "feel" about that is irrelevant. Now lets get back to talking about boats!
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Old 12-08-2013, 18:10   #329
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Re: Climate Change

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i have to say.. this was a good thread. lots of debate and argument.. . A good thread to blow off steam about the disagreement tnen walk away friends. if the mods would allow the grown responsible adults to debate the other one or two issues without believing they are somehow kindergarten teachers...

Climate change is a reality. how you "feel" about that is irrelevant. Now lets get back to talking about boats!
In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is in the Off-Topic Forum. We'd love to have your willing participation, but if you are not interested, please feel free to not give advice about what to discuss.
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Old 12-08-2013, 18:19   #330
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Unlike other " species" we have intellect and self awareness. Our technology gives us tremendous power over nature , when's the last time you saw a dog write a letter.

Ascribing purely lower order animalistic traits , does not get us off the AGW hook. We're to blame and we'd better fix it. I see no prospect of emigrating to outside the solar system any day soon.

Dave
Why think it's fixable? My point is there is no evidence to suggest that humans are any different to any other animal at a species level, just blindly bumbling along, self awareness seems to change nothing, it's obvious an entire civilisation based on unsustainable free energy is a bad idea, but nothing of any significance changes.

No point saying we'd better fix it if there isn't any evidence to suggest we can.
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