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Old 12-08-2013, 06:04   #271
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Re: Climate Change

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So it's less about being addicted, and more about simple limitations. Lions can't fly airplanes, spiders don't walk on two legs, and perhaps humans can't manage geographically large and disparate problems. It's just the kind of animals we've evolved to be.
Yes. What's amazing is that these hairless apes, evolved with a brain to hunt cooperatively, with a high degree of social and environmental awareness, have been able to use that hunter brain to discover not only our place in the universe but the very origins of the universe itself.

But, as you say, our adaptability isn't limitless and maybe seemingly simpler problems -- such as managing global resources cooperatively -- is just beyond our capacity. That would be tragic, indeed.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:08   #272
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Re: Climate Change

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Yes. What's amazing is that these hairless apes, evolved with a brain to hunt cooperatively, with a high degree of social and environmental awareness, have been able to use that hunter brain to discover not only our place in the universe but the very origins of the universe itself.

But, as you say, our adaptability isn't limitless and maybe seemingly simpler problems -- such as managing global resources cooperatively -- is just beyond our capacity. That would be tragic, indeed.

lol wait, we are apes and discovered the origins of the universe? LOL
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:08   #273
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Re: Climate Change

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Yes. What's amazing is that these hairless apes, evolved with a brain to hunt cooperatively on the African veldt with a high degree of social and environmental awareness have been able to use that brain to discover not only our place in the universe but the very origins of the universe itself. But, as you say, our adaptability isn't limitless and maybe seemingly much simpler problems -- such as managing global resources cooperatively -- is just beyond our possibilities.
Its not beyond our possibilities, what happens is that until the effects clearly demonstrate themselves, ie your house starts to float away, to enough people, then we can act collectively and can sort such problems.

In other words, humans are 11th-hour merchants.

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Old 12-08-2013, 06:15   #274
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Its not beyond our possibilities, what happens is that until the effects clearly demonstrate themselves, ie your house starts to float away, to enough people, then we can act collectively and can sort such problems.

In other words, humans are 11th-hour merchants.

dave
Is there any evidence of this at a species level?

Someone on Easter island still chopped down the last tree...

CFC's don't really count as it was such an easy fix.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:27   #275
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Re: Climate Change

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Its not beyond our possibilities, what happens is that until the effects clearly demonstrate themselves, ie your house starts to float away, to enough people, then we can act collectively and can sort such problems.
Agreed. It's what I said a few posts back as well Dave. We won't act until we have to -- just like all other animals. When we hit those barriers we'll do something -- just like all other animals. The problem is that by the time enough of us feel the pain, the system may already be (will likely be) out of our control.

A freighter doesn't stop when you apply the reverse engines. It takes a long time to make a course change.

Global climate systems are really big freighters.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:44   #276
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Re: Climate Change

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Is there any evidence of this at a species level?

Someone on Easter island still chopped down the last tree...

CFC's don't really count as it was such an easy fix.
where man, does not perceive negative or detrimental side effects , then things continue till nothing is left. This is true of any resource.

However if cutting down trees resulting in the Easter Islanders running short of air, then I bet you , theyd have stopped.


we are at the base of it simple animals, driven by need and controlled by fear.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:59   #277
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Re: Climate Change

meh, we survived the dinosaurs, we will survive 300ppm CO2
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:09   #278
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pirate Re: Climate Change

Think we were still some kind of reptile or fish back then according to science...
Personally I think as a species we were busy stuffing up Mars and desperately looking for another host at the time...
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:13   #279
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Re: Climate Change

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our adaptability isn't limitless and maybe seemingly simpler problems -- such as managing global resources cooperatively -- is just beyond our capacity.
Our adaptability IS limitless. Put another way, humans have NOT yet hit their limits to adapt. That whole ability to think in the abstract thing. To the extent that we can think about and predict the future consequences of present actions, we are OUTSIDE of nature. Throwing one's hands up and saying "oh well, that's what we do, it's our nature" is a cop-out.

The current climate change "debate" is very very simple: You have virtually an entire branch of science who have said the following:
  1. they've identified physical changes in our environment that are directly attributable to human activity, and
  2. to the best of their ability they've told us what they think is probably going to happen.
Arrayed against this is the money and PR muscle of large industries who make huge profits from the current and projected future levels of of energy sales and consumption.

Long story short - by getting the average person to suddenly doubt the utility of science, or the scientists' motives, this massive lobbying effort has succeeded in creating the false impression that there is a genuine debate about the science, and therefore what to do about the problem. We can't start discussing solutions if we still think there's uncertainty over what's happening.

Statement #1 is beyond dispute. #2 is of course subject to further discussion, but if we can't get past arguing about #1, we can't get to #2.

So - a win for the fossil-fuel lobby and friends, aided and abetted by some right-wingers who can't stand any diktat to reduce consumption, pay taxes or to take collective action.

If anyone doubts the power of corporate interests versus scientific truth, just look how long it took to out cigarettes as a cause of cancer, and to start doing something about it.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:16   #280
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Re: Climate Change

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meh, we survived the dinosaurs, we will survive 300ppm CO2
We? Humans? Not with dinosaurs.

No doubt the planet will survive 300ppm - there have been several mass extinctions (90+ of the species) in the past with just enough species to adapt and thrive. It would likely happen again, that is true.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:27   #281
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Re: Climate Change

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(...) I think we should use 1993 as a starting point, Pinatubo and all. Better yet 1985.
Does not matter because good use of analytical tools will easily identify the outliers and either discard or discount them.

For the ignoranti, it is safest to pick up a mid-point for their homebrew guesses.

If talking climate change, you want max time horizon = max data points. Otherwise we are not talking climate.

b.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:40   #282
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Re: Climate Change

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We? Humans? Not with dinosaurs.

No doubt the planet will survive 300ppm - there have been several mass extinctions (90+ of the species) in the past with just enough species to adapt and thrive. It would likely happen again, that is true.
indeed with dinosaurs. science club does not just lie about global warming.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:44   #283
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pirate Re: Climate Change

It matters not a jot what is said here... the greedy, selfish and powerful WILL get their own way by hook or by crook... take our own beloved () David Cameron who this morning was offering a 1 million bribe to a village if they'd stop blockading a 'Fracking Site' in the UK... all that the silence and disapproving looks achieved was a follow up that if successful even more money would reach each person individually... so forget any Gov sponsored crap... your just a number... and if you cannot be balanced out satisfactorily then Plan B will come into effect... Compulsory Purchase... so go sit on a carrot and swivel...
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:55   #284
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where man, does not perceive negative or detrimental side effects , then things continue till nothing is left. This is true of any resource.

However if cutting down trees resulting in the Easter Islanders running short of air, then I bet you , theyd have stopped.

we are at the base of it simple animals, driven by need and controlled by fear.
dave
I reckon the guys on Easter island knew it was the eleventh hour. .....
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:02   #285
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pirate Re: Climate Change

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I reckon the guys on Easter island knew it was the eleventh hour. .....
Naah... just got sick of Sushi and buga'd orf....
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