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Old 11-08-2013, 17:38   #241
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Re: Climate Change

Since denies like to accuse researchers of chasing the money, I thought it fair to point out an alternative view.


A Side of Climate Change Denial with Your Coffee? ALEC Dishes up Some Hard to Swallow Spin with the Heartland Institute | PR Watch

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ALEC Is Bankrolled by Huge Oil, Gas, and Coal Corporations

ALEC, which is bankrolled by some of the biggest companies profiting from expanded consumption of oil, gas, and coal, has numerous bills designed to stop any effort to address climate change.

These ALEC lobbying agenda items include trying to stop the EPA from regulating CO2; trying to stop the government from imposing a carbon tax, and trying to stop states from honoring contracts to produce a portion of their energy from renewable energy sources, as the Center for Media and Democracy has helped document as part of its ALECexposed project.

It is no surprise that some of the richest corporations in the world that have underwritten ALEC's operations -- like Koch Industries, Exxon, Chevron, Marathon, BP, Peabody Coal, and TransCanada, which has been pushing the Keystone XL Pipeline -- benefit financially from the sowing of confusion about climate change. Some may wonder why other ALEC sponsors are going along with ALEC's role in the denier's playbook. For example, State Farm's executives continue to fund ALEC even though the insurer has to pay out big sums when extreme weather strikes.
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Old 11-08-2013, 17:49   #242
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Re: Climate Change

Originally Posted by RaymondR
Big business is not the problem, when was the last time you heard of big business hiring a torturer or funding weapons proliferation, big government and it's pursuit of trendy causes is the problem.

When was the last time indeed,,,, Ahh, wasn't there something in the news a few years back about enhanced integration techniques? And what is one of America' top exports? Ahh, weapons of mass destruction. The same ones big biz, sell's to our soon to become enemies. And big biz hasit's own trendy connections, Halliburton, Lockheed, and on,and on. And yes big Gov is the instrument the problem in that it is in support of the above. Given that big biz currently own's big gov.

This will be my exit post to this thread. But let me say this. I grew up in a very dark blue collar community in Phila. (Kensington). The higher education experience was not generally available. So the citizens went thru their lives dependent on their inherent intelligence. Most had a pretty clear read on what they knew and what they didn't. And when they didn't they would seek someone who might know more, more or less. Trust, and past experience and reputation were the touchstone of this arraingment. Today we are conditioned to act as if we know, irrespective of the facts, if you don't know, don't let them know, just keep talking and hope they don't catch on. In the process of, just keep talking, lay the most insane comments, the most disjointed and schizoid logic imaginable. Think Orwellian double speak. Things are being said that have no fixed subject matter. The western mind has this fundamental investment in what is called empiricism. That being one 'fact' following atop another. In that 'fact' following process, patterns develop. Those patterns creat the experience, generally called reality. Today's 'knowing' seems to not be that interested in reality. Finding, or working your way toward any pattern called reality is just not that important. Being subjectively right is the point. Winning, is the point. And if your just not smart enough to play the Empisicist game, well just make **** up. Grab any side of the argument, massage/bend it to make it sound like it was your possition to begin with, sling it against the walll and see what stick,s. Before the other person/side is trying to understand what is happening, you've already got another piece of crap on the wall. Who cares about articulating the question and then in a logical and ratiional way discovering the answer. Just keep slinging s--t until the ,now called, opponent, gives up and walks away. You win!!! From top to bottom, this is the new paradigm. Get the dumbest guy in the crowd to drive the bus. As in GW. When he/they drive the bus off the cliff, blame those others. Terrorist. Spend all of the money's that working Americans have saved over the past 75 years on getting those terrorist and then blame still more, 'others' for wrecking the economy! And as to the point of this discussion, wreck the enviroment, use the same maddening crazyness to delay applying any remedies, support the only winner in the game, again, big biz. And yet again blame those that are smart enough to see the pattern. Pretty disturbing. In the interim, thing's just get worse. The argument disolves into intelletual choas, logic devoid of reason. Were not talking about, the environment. We're talking to be oppositional. I'm against that, this, it, those, you, them. What's true? What's right? Who cares! I win! Some game. The smack down game.
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Old 11-08-2013, 17:55   #243
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That's wiki for you, Gray talks more about the judeo Christian tradition.


this observation is a goodun
Quote:
If Darwin's discovery had been made in a Taoist or Shinto, Hindu or animist culture it would very likely have become just one more strand in its intertwining mythologies. In these faiths humans and other animals are kin. By contrast, arising among Christians who set humans beyond all other living things, it triggered a bitter controversy that rages on to this day.
With no let up in the rate co2 is increasing it looks like maybe Gray is right, humans just behave like all the other animals on the planet with no significant hand in their development as a species.
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Old 11-08-2013, 18:01   #244
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
That's wiki for you, Gray talks more about the judeo Christian tradition.


this observation is a goodun


With no let up in the rate co2 is increasing it looks like maybe Gray is right, humans just behave like all the other animals on the planet with no significant hand in their development as a species.
It sure hits a chord with me, it fits my observations.

It is not a new thing either. Try reading SEA OF SLAUGHTER, Farley Mowat, if you can stomach it.
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Old 11-08-2013, 18:54   #245
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Glad you agreed with scoobert. It screams volumes about your thinking.



Ok...I'm in. On my way to the grocery store for a few rolls of aluminum foil to line the coach roof and a custom helmet to protect me from conspiracies beamed directly into my brain...Thanx again
How pathetic ! Someone posts something you don't like and the best you got is the old tinfoil hat cliché. Oh well.

Plenty of people besides me think that Phil Jones got the benefit of a whitewash.
Pat Michaels: The Climategate Whitewash Continues: Don't Believe the 'Independent Reviews' About Goings on at the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia - WSJ.com

The UK Met Office, high priests of alarmism, have admitted that global temperatures have only risen 0.05 degrees since 1997. On 14 October 2012 their press release said " The linear trend from August 1997 to August 2012 is about 0.03°C/decade, amounting to a temperature increase of 0.05°C over that period "

Commentary here.
Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released... and here is the chart to prove it | Mail Online

Oh, I did not even know that Alex Jones had a radio show because I have never heard of it let alone listened.
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Old 11-08-2013, 18:58   #246
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pirate Re: Climate Change

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
How pathetic ! Someone posts something you don't like and the best you got is the old tinfoil hat cliché. Oh well.

Plenty of people besides me think that Phil Jones got the benefit of a whitewash.
Pat Michaels: The Climategate Whitewash Continues: Don't Believe the 'Independent Reviews' About Goings on at the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia - WSJ.com

The UK Met Office, high priests of alarmism, have admitted that global temperatures have only risen 0.05 degrees since 1997. On 14 October 2012 their press release said " The linear trend from August 1997 to August 2012 is about 0.03°C/decade, amounting to a temperature increase of 0.05°C over that period "

Commentary here.
Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released... and here is the chart to prove it | Mail Online
UK Met Office... don't make me Larf... they can barely get tomorrow right...
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Old 11-08-2013, 19:11   #247
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Re: Climate Change

Yeah, that report was refuted by the Met Office itself. Out of context, not what we said, etc.

A few folks still believe Earth is flat, I don't argue with them either.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
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Old 11-08-2013, 19:11   #248
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Re: Climate Change

Hey , I'm not a fan of theirs. Their ability to get it right over recent years has been demonstrated by them to be totally abysmal. The thing is, flim flam Phil has been the Met Office's number 1 supplier of raw data.

Every seasonal forecast error those guys have made in recent years has included temperature forecast too high. Funny that.
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Old 11-08-2013, 19:26   #249
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Re: Climate Change

self-editing. Sometimes I get carried away. Apologies.
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Old 11-08-2013, 19:37   #250
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Re: Climate Change

[QUOTE=Mike OReilly;1308499][QUOTE=conachair;1308467]Have you read Straw Dogs by John Gray?

Delves deeply into that idea, being possibly the only poster here capable of zooming out far enough to even ask such a question you might enjoy it.

John N. Gray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Thanks conachair, I haven't read any of his works, but they sound intriguing. I'll definitely look them up.

The arrogance of our species; that we are somehow special or different than all the rest, continually strikes me as both myopic and just plain ridiculous. There is a lot of relatively new research in neuroscience, in social psychology, in biology ... all which are shining a mirror on humanity's long-held belief in our "uniqueness." The reflection shows ... nothing.

The more we learn, the more it becomes starkly obvious we are no different than any other gene-maximizing critter.
But, actually, if you read Darwin's Descent of Man, as I am coincidentally at this moment, you see that Darwin anticipated much of what is cutting edge research into morality in animals, altruistic behavior, etc. The man was far, far ahead of his time!
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Old 11-08-2013, 19:41   #251
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
How pathetic ! Someone posts something you don't like and the best you got is the old tinfoil hat cliché. Oh well.

Plenty of people besides me think that Phil Jones got the benefit of a whitewash.
Pat Michaels: The Climategate Whitewash Continues: Don't Believe the 'Independent Reviews' About Goings on at the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia - WSJ.com

The UK Met Office, high priests of alarmism, have admitted that global temperatures have only risen 0.05 degrees since 1997. On 14 October 2012 their press release said " The linear trend from August 1997 to August 2012 is about 0.03°C/decade, amounting to a temperature increase of 0.05°C over that period "

Commentary here.
Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released... and here is the chart to prove it | Mail Online

Oh, I did not even know that Alex Jones had a radio show because I have never heard of it let alone listened.
Sourcing officially upgraded from Alex Jones to British tabloids. Well, at least he's heading in the right direction.
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Old 11-08-2013, 19:47   #252
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Humans are just doing what all species do. They (we) exploit our ecosystems to the maximum possible. Expansion halts when external barriers are encountered: predators, competition by other species, pollution, or resource limitation. When this happens population comes into balance with these barriers. So far humanity has found a way to blow past all barriers, and to exploit virtually the entire biosphere, but we're now encountering limits that may not be surmountable.

So humans are just behaving like all other animals. The fascinating question is whether homo sapiens can step outside of Nature and become the most unnatural species this planet has ever produced. We need to proactively limit our own exploitation. No species has ever done this. Can we?

I think it is possible. We have some things which may be a first on this planet. We can see into the future and predict what the outcome of present-day activies will be. AND we have the capacity to care about other species. These two facts may make us pretty special, if not unique.
I agree but I don't think the news is good. We, as an intelligent, near precognitive species, can recognize, analyze, and understand the problem but we are unable to "step outside of nature" to save ourselves. We cannot help ourselves. Kind of like a heroin addict recognizing he has a problem.
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Old 11-08-2013, 20:07   #253
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
I agree but I don't think the news is good. We, as an intelligent, near precognitive species, can recognize, analyze, and understand the problem but we are unable to "step outside of nature" to save ourselves. We cannot help ourselves. Kind of like a heroin addict recognizing he has a problem.
I agree ... sadly, I agree.
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Old 11-08-2013, 20:13   #254
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Re: Climate Change

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Sourcing officially upgraded from Alex Jones to British tabloids. Well, at least he's heading in the right direction.
To quote Muhammad Ali from " When we were Kings "

" that the best you got George ? "
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Old 11-08-2013, 20:18   #255
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post

The UK Met Office, high priests of alarmism, have admitted that global temperatures have only risen 0.05 degrees since 1997. On 14 October 2012 their press release said " The linear trend from August 1997 to August 2012 is about 0.03°C/decade, amounting to a temperature increase of 0.05°C over that period "

Commentary here.
Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released... and here is the chart to prove it | Mail Online
And here is the response from the MET Office.

Quote:
An article by David Rose appears today in the Mail on Sunday under the title: ‘Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released… and here is the chart to prove it’

It is the second article Mr Rose has written which contains some misleading information, after he wrote an article earlier this year on the same theme – you see our response to that one here.

To address some of the points in the article published today:

Firstly, the Met Office has not issued a report on this issue. We can only assume the article is referring to the completion of work to update the HadCRUT4 global temperature dataset compiled by ourselves and the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit.

We announced that this work was going on in March and it was finished this week. You can see the HadCRUT4 website here.

Secondly, Mr Rose says the Met Office made no comment about its decadal climate predictions. This is because he did not ask us to make a comment about them.
Met Office in the Media: 14 October 2012 | Met Office News Blog

This refutation is well known among knowledgeable folks.

David Rose has a reputation for getting it wrong.
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