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Old 11-08-2013, 11:37   #226
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Quite correct. Notice how the biggest alleged temperature increase is in Siberia. That is because
1. Nobody believes anything the Russians say.
2. Even if they are to be believed there are very few weather stations in Siberia so figures are hard to verify or dispute.

The data used to allege huge temperature rises in Siberia is all fake.
Prison Planet.com IPCC Scientists Caught Producing False Data To Push Global Warming
Fake data was used in New Zealand too.
TBR.cc: BREAKING: NZ

PT Barnum was right.
Ugh, your links *are* pretty bad. For example, the Siberia "fake data" state the sea ice is expanding therefore it is all ok, but fail to discuss the loss of land ice, which is what would increase MSL, and is pretty significant. The New Zealand data they claim is 'fake' is because "they" looked at the raw data themselves and "could find no reason for any large corrections". Yet, the NWIA's website clearly describes their methodology:
https://www.niwa.co.nz/our-science/c...to-be-adjusted

These are standard techniques for reducing data bias similar to calibration. But your website simply said they looked at the raw data and it looked OK to them (!) with no consideration of the factors that affect different instruments in different locales that require different forms of calibration. Nor did they suggest appropriate techniques that should be applied which is a red flag that they don't really know how it should be done. This is why there is peer review in the scientific community.

That said - whether or not the earth will warm, cool, have more violent weather, flood coasts, melt ice - the climatologists I've worked with at NOAA/NSIDC don't say they have any answers and they know the models and their limitations. Only special interest groups and politicians seem to "know what to do" (ugh again). (Most) scientists only report their observations and are not in on the "global conspiracy".
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:46   #227
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Presumably you believed the Warren commission, Hutton Inquiry and 9/11 Commission ?

These con tricks are as old as Methuselah. Find out who is picking up the tab, who is on the commission of inquiry and who ordered the inquiry and you can forecast the nature of the report even before the first day of hearings. The people who sit on such committees of inquiry can always be relied upon to deliver the " right " opinion - that's why they get the job.

It's all fakery set up to impress the gullible.
And the conspiracy theorists come out of the woodwork.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:52   #228
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Re: Climate Change

um Savoir russian hard science is respected the world over. Moreso than US science and it's something the soviets beat us at from day 1 the entire cold war. This is the problem with righties.. if they dont want to hear something they first just make stuff up... then they attack the messenger as the son of satan. it's sad
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:57   #229
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Re: Climate Change

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Prison Planet? Really?! You're actually quoting from Alex Jones' website?

This guy??
Aaaah, one of the oldest undergraduate debating tricks around - attack the messenger in order to divert attention from the message.

OK then here is the original report.
http://www.iea.ru/article/kioto_order/15.12.2009.pdf
and a comment upon it in English by someone who is not Alex Jones
What the Russian papers say | What the Russian papers say | RIA Novosti
not by Alex Jones either
Russia Confirms Climategate Scandal

Let's finish up with a quote from Captain Flim Flam himself, Phil Jones in one of his better emails to Michael Mann
" Recently rejected two papers (one for JGR and for GRL) from people saying CRU has it wrong over Siberia. Went to town in both reviews, hopefully successfully. If either appears I will be very surprised, but you never know with GRL."

Just like Mann, Jones was exonerated by a " report ", nudge nudge wink wink. How about we take a look at the guy behind that report and how he makes his money.
Global warming: The Oxburgh Inquiry was an offer he couldn’t refuse. | Watts Up With That?

Then there's the government report. The UK Met Office was Jones' biggest customer. Do you think those guys want to admit that they have been paying millions to a flim flam man ? Hell no ! On top of that there's the tens of millions in subsidies paid to the green energy industry. Was the UK government ever going to disrupt that gravy train ? Hell no !

The government report was always going to be pro Jones and it was.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:11   #230
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Re: Climate Change

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Aaaah, one of the oldest undergraduate debating tricks around - attack the messenger in order to divert attention from the message.

OK then here is the original report.
http://www.iea.ru/article/kioto_order/15.12.2009.pdf
and a comment upon it in English by someone who is not Alex Jones
What the Russian papers say | What the Russian papers say | RIA Novosti
not by Alex Jones either
Russia Confirms Climategate Scandal

Let's finish up with a quote from Captain Flim Flam himself, Phil Jones in one of his better emails to Michael Mann
" Recently rejected two papers (one for JGR and for GRL) from people saying CRU has it wrong over Siberia. Went to town in both reviews, hopefully successfully. If either appears I will be very surprised, but you never know with GRL."

Just like Mann, Jones was exonerated by a " report ", nudge nudge wink wink. How about we take a look at the guy behind that report and how he makes his money.
Global warming: The Oxburgh Inquiry was an offer he couldn’t refuse. | Watts Up With That?

Then there's the government report. The UK Met Office was Jones' biggest customer. Do you think those guys want to admit that they have been paying millions to a flim flam man ? Hell no ! On top of that there's the tens of millions in subsidies paid to the green energy industry. Was the UK government ever going to disrupt that gravy train ? Hell no !

The government report was always going to be pro Jones and it was.
It wasn't one panel that exonerated Mann, it was three. I'll put the National Science Foundation, Penn State and the University of East Anglia above a link from yet another denier site, thank you very much.

See, this is what listening to Alex Jones every night will get you. I'd be curious if you're on the same page as him on these gems, too:


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Old 11-08-2013, 12:27   #231
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Hope this wasn't already said, but since co2 is a major green house gas couldn't we just hold our 5 or so billion collective breaths for a minute and end global warming?
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:30   #232
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Re: Climate Change

Wow! I'm worn out just trying to find time to read all these posts... who won the argument? Anyone have anything to say about cruising, boats or living aboard? Phil
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:59   #233
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Wow! I'm worn out just trying to find time to read all these posts... who won the argument? Anyone have anything to say about cruising, boats or living aboard? Phil
Me! And it was exhausting. I need a cruise.
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Old 11-08-2013, 13:58   #234
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Re: Climate Change

I have only read the last two posts and, I too, need a trip to unwind! Seychelles or BUST! (I haven't read any CF posts on the Seychelles! They are supposed to disappear/submerge due to global warming.)

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Old 11-08-2013, 14:40   #235
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Re: Climate Change

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Quite correct. Notice how the biggest alleged temperature increase is in Siberia. That is because
1. Nobody believes anything the Russians say.
2. Even if they are to be believed there are very few weather stations in Siberia so figures are hard to verify or dispute.

The data used to allege huge temperature rises in Siberia is all fake.
Prison Planet.com IPCC Scientists Caught Producing False Data To Push Global Warming
Fake data was used in New Zealand too.
TBR.cc: BREAKING: NZ

PT Barnum was right.
Glad you agreed with scoobert. It screams volumes about your thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Presumably you believed the Warren commission, Hutton Inquiry and 9/11 Commission ?

These con tricks are as old as Methuselah. Find out who is picking up the tab, who is on the commission of inquiry and who ordered the inquiry and you can forecast the nature of the report even before the first day of hearings. The people who sit on such committees of inquiry can always be relied upon to deliver the " right " opinion - that's why they get the job.

It's all fakery set up to impress the gullible.
Ok...I'm in. On my way to the grocery store for a few rolls of aluminum foil to line the coach roof and a custom helmet to protect me from conspiracies beamed directly into my brain...Thanx again
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Old 11-08-2013, 17:00   #236
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Humans are just doing what all species do. They (we) exploit our ecosystems to the maximum possible. Expansion halts when external barriers are encountered: predators, competition by other species, pollution, or resource limitation. When this happens population comes into balance with these barriers. So far humanity has found a way to blow past all barriers, and to exploit virtually the entire biosphere, but we're now encountering limits that may not be surmountable.

So humans are just behaving like all other animals. The fascinating question is whether homo sapiens can step outside of Nature and become the most unnatural species this planet has ever produced. We need to proactively limit our own exploitation. No species has ever done this. Can we?

I think it is possible. We have some things which may be a first on this planet. We can see into the future and predict what the outcome of present-day activies will be. AND we have the capacity to care about other species. These two facts may make us pretty special, if not unique.

... but so far the signs are not good. So far we are behaving just like all the rest. We are rapidly eating our resources and crapping in our nests.
Have you read Straw Dogs by John Gray?

Delves deeply into that idea, being possibly the only poster here capable of zooming out far enough to even ask such a question you might enjoy it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_N._Gray

[QUOTE]
Central to the doctrine of humanism, in Gray’s view, is the inherently utopian belief in meliorism, namely that humans are not limited by their biological natures and that advances in ethics and politics are cumulative or that they can alter or improve the human condition, in the same way that advances in science and technology have altered or improved living standards.[8]

Gray contends, in opposition to this view, that history is not progressive, but cyclical. Human nature, he argues, is an inherent obstacle to cumulative ethical or political progress.[8] Seeming improvements, if there are any, can very easily be reversed: one example he has cited has been the use of torture by the United States against terrorist suspects.[9][10]

Furthermore, he argues that this belief in progress, commonly imagined to be secular and liberal, is in fact derived from an erroneous Christian notion of humans as morally autonomous beings categorically different from other animals. This belief, and the corresponding idea that history makes sense, or is progressing towards something, is in Gray’s view merely a Christian prejudice.[8]

In Straw Dogs, he argues that the idea that humans are self-determining agents does not pass the acid test of experience. Those Darwinist thinkers who believe humans can take charge of their own destiny to prevent environmental degradation are, in this view, not naturalists, but apostles of humanism.[8]

He identifies the Enlightenment as the point at which the Christian doctrine of salvation was taken over by secular idealism and became a political religion with universal emancipation as its aim.[8]Communism, fascism and ‘global democratic capitalism’ are characterised by Gray as Enlightenment 'projects' which have led to needless suffering, in Gray’s view, as a result of their ideological allegiance to this religion.[11][\QUOTE]
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Old 11-08-2013, 17:15   #237
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Re: Climate Change

Conachair,

Thanks for that post. Having been involved in a humanism as religion group I think I have experienced the thinking your pot describes. And I think your link presents an accurate description.

From one Pape owner to another ((wink wink)) you might also enjoy E.O. Wilson's book, THE SOCIAL CONQUEST OF EARTH. he takes a long road to get to it but eventually discusses how eusocial Darwinism has developed many of our highly valued humanistic traits. I found his argument compelling.

Unfortunately I see nothing in his work to point to how humanity will cope with our coming dilemmas.

Because I have such a pessimistic outlook we have invested in our boats as a way of remaining flexible, so as to be better able to cope with potential stressors.

Perhaps, having had a pretty successful climate change thread be open for so long we could someday tolerate a thread about using sailboats to help survive in a crisis.
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Old 11-08-2013, 17:25   #238
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Quote:
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Conachair,

Thanks for that post. Having been involved in a humanism as religion group I think I have experienced the thinking your pot describes. And I think your link presents an accurate description.

From one Pape owner to another ((wink wink)) you might also enjoy E.O. Wilson's book, THE SOCIAL CONQUEST OF EARTH. he takes a long road to get to it but eventually discusses how eusocial Darwinism has developed many of our highly valued humanistic traits. I found his argument compelling.

Unfortunately I see nothing in his work to point to how humanity will cope with our coming dilemmas.

Because I have such a pessimistic outlook we have invested in our boats as a way of remaining flexible, so as to be better able to cope with potential stressors.

Perhaps, having had a pretty successful climate change thread be open for so long we could someday tolerate a thread about using sailboats to help survive in a crisis.
I see no advantage in a modern sailboat as a way of protecting anyone from any sort of crisis of any significant proportion. I certainly do not see it in any way as a survivalist tool.

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Old 11-08-2013, 17:34   #239
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Re: Climate Change

[QUOTE=conachair;1308467]Have you read Straw Dogs by John Gray?

Delves deeply into that idea, being possibly the only poster here capable of zooming out far enough to even ask such a question you might enjoy it.

John N. Gray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[QUOTE]

Thanks conachair, I haven't read any of his works, but they sound intriguing. I'll definitely look them up.

The arrogance of our species; that we are somehow special or different than all the rest, continually strikes me as both myopic and just plain ridiculous. There is a lot of relatively new research in neuroscience, in social psychology, in biology ... all which are shining a mirror on humanity's long-held belief in our "uniqueness." The reflection shows ... nothing.

The more we learn, the more it becomes starkly obvious we are no different than any other gene-maximizing critter.
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Old 11-08-2013, 17:36   #240
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pirate Re: Climate Change

[QUOTE=conachair;1308467]Have you read Straw Dogs by John Gray?

Delves deeply into that idea, being possibly the only poster here capable of zooming out far enough to even ask such a question you might enjoy it.

John N. Gray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Central to the doctrine of humanism, in Gray’s view, is the inherently utopian belief in meliorism, namely that humans are not limited by their biological natures and that advances in ethics and politics are cumulative or that they can alter or improve the human condition, in the same way that advances in science and technology have altered or improved living standards.[8]

Gray contends, in opposition to this view, that history is not progressive, but cyclical. Human nature, he argues, is an inherent obstacle to cumulative ethical or political progress.[8] Seeming improvements, if there are any, can very easily be reversed: one example he has cited has been the use of torture by the United States against terrorist suspects.[9][10]

Furthermore, he argues that this belief in progress, commonly imagined to be secular and liberal, is in fact derived from an erroneous Christian notion of humans as morally autonomous beings categorically different from other animals. This belief, and the corresponding idea that history makes sense, or is progressing towards something, is in Gray’s view merely a Christian prejudice.[8]

In Straw Dogs, he argues that the idea that humans are self-determining agents does not pass the acid test of experience. Those Darwinist thinkers who believe humans can take charge of their own destiny to prevent environmental degradation are, in this view, not naturalists, but apostles of humanism.[8]

He identifies the Enlightenment as the point at which the Christian doctrine of salvation was taken over by secular idealism and became a political religion with universal emancipation as its aim.[8]Communism, fascism and ‘global democratic capitalism’ are characterised by Gray as Enlightenment 'projects' which have led to needless suffering, in Gray’s view, as a result of their ideological allegiance to this religion.[11][\QUOTE]
Actually the Jewish religion... of which Christianity and Islam are by products... with various forms off shooting from these...
Just about every other religion has a respect/reverence for life and nature that the above totally lack..
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