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Old 10-08-2013, 17:22   #181
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Re: Climate Change

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What's going to happen when the rest of the world all wants fossil fuel powered boats like we all have?


We need to be thinking of something snappy to say to them in response. I don't think, "You can't have one. The earth's climate is changing. We're grandfathered in because we already have them and like it. You will never know what you are missing so it's easier for you."
The rest of the world now knows how the "First World" lives. We may not be grandfathered in much longer.
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Old 10-08-2013, 17:25   #182
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Re: Climate Change

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The rest of the world now knows how the "First World" lives. We may not be grandfathered in much longer.
So, you don't think they are going to take that well, either?
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:08   #183
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Re: Climate Change

What happened to "global warming". Did it morph into "climate change" because it had stopped happening?

The single factor which will most significantly reduce the worlds environmental problems is fewer people. The best way to reduce population is via economic development and empowering women to manage their reproductive biology. Whilst western, first world countries are the biggest consumers per head they are the only ones actually reducing the number of consuming heads.

Put the money being wasted on this climate change nonsense into research and development on safe nuclear power (Statistically it is already the safest) and electrify our economies and the excess CO2 problem is gone.

Sooner or later we are going to run out of fossil fuel anyway and we might as well get started on the only available practical alternative and whilst doing so give a massive boost to our economies, and improve both our standards of living and our quality of life.

No person who has ever lived long term on a boat and been dependent upon "renewable s" ie solar and wind would be silly enough to unequivocally state that you can run a civilization on them.
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:13   #184
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Re: Climate Change

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The single factor which will most significantly reduce the worlds environmental problems is fewer people. The best way to reduce population is via economic development and empowering women to manage their reproductive biology. Whilst western, first world countries are the biggest consumers per head they are the only ones actually reducing the number of consuming heads.
Conviently, that viewpoint benefits those that already have grabbed the resources, have the wealth and are the biggest polluters. Funny that

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Put the money being wasted on this climate change nonsense into research and development on safe nuclear power (Statistically it is already the safest) and electrify our economies and the excess CO2 problem is gone.
Sure but electricity can't make plastic for example


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wasted on this climate change nonsense
Im glad to see you maintain an open unbiased perspective, it helps us to evaluate the soundness of your opinions.


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No person who has ever lived long term on a boat and been dependent upon "renewable s" ie solar and wind would be silly enough to unequivocally state that you can run a civilization on them.
There are many that argue otherwise.

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Old 10-08-2013, 18:31   #185
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The only thing I have to say on the topic is that it was only 10 years ago when we were doing climate studies at uni that we were being presented with all these 'facts' about the ocean levels dropping and destroying the Great Barrier Reef. Now we have 'certain' evidence that the opposite is happening. 10 years from now...who knows??

The world is definitely in a bad way and getting worse but I believe it has more to do with our way of life as a wasteful, throwaway society more
than anything else. I don't see how we can rape the earth of a few elements by mining, not replenishing it and think that we're not disturbing the balance.

Just my two cents...
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:49   #186
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Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
What's going to happen when the rest of the world all wants fossil fuel powered boats like we all have?


We need to be thinking of something snappy to say to them in response. I don't think, "You can't have one. The earth's climate is changing. We're grandfathered in because we already have them and like it. You will never know what you are missing so it's easier for you."
What does that have to do with whether there's such a thing as climate change? You might not like the implications of it, but that is a separate thing from whether or not it's true.
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:51   #187
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Re: Climate Change

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So one side is based on emotion and the other side is based on logic?

Let me guess, your opinion is based on logic and the people who disagree with you are basing their opinion on emotion?

How'd I do?
Well, yeah. If even you can see it, maybe there's still hope.
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Old 10-08-2013, 19:08   #188
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pirate Re: Climate Change

You guys make me laugh... you want fancy wood wardrobes etc, nice woodwork and teak and holly soles... firewood... agricultural land for palm oil... flood fertile land for hydro-electric dams and then whinge when there's FAL to create oxygen and maintain the balance...
The BSOF cultures going strong... but HIV rules...
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Old 10-08-2013, 19:14   #189
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Re: Climate Change

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Bingo !

And IMHO I believe a lot of folks will be very surprised when they look around and see who, and what, is still standing ...
I will not be surprised if some pretty tough characters from the ghettos do relatively well. They are now living in a tough crucible while a lot of "nice" folks luxuriate in our cheap energy bath, learning nothing of value for survival.
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Old 10-08-2013, 19:15   #190
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Re: Climate Change

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What happened to "global warming". Did it morph into "climate change" because it had stopped happening?
The IPCC was formed in 1988 and the "CC" stands for ....

Also, you can blame the GOP for the "climate change" meme.

Quote:
The US Republican party is changing tactics on the environment, avoiding "frightening" phrases such as global warming, after a confidential party memo warned that it is the domestic issue on which George Bush is most vulnerable.

The memo, by the leading Republican consultant Frank Luntz, concedes the party has "lost the environmental communications battle" and urges its politicians to encourage the public in the view that there is no scientific consensus on the dangers of greenhouse gases.

"The scientific debate is closing [against us] but not yet closed. There is still a window of opportunity to challenge the science," Mr Luntz writes in the memo, obtained by the Environmental Working Group, a Washington-based campaigning organisation.

"Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly.

"Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate."

The phrase "global warming" should be abandoned in favour of "climate change", Mr Luntz says, and the party should describe its policies as "conservationist" instead of "environmentalist", because "most people" think environmentalists are "extremists" who indulge in "some pretty bizarre behaviour... that turns off many voters".
Luntz has since admitted that AGW is real.
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Old 10-08-2013, 19:18   #191
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Re: Climate Change

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The global population growth rate has dropped from 2.2% in 1963 to 1.1% today.



Growth rate of world population (1950Ė2050)
Yes, it is still GROWING, and the growth rate is sustaining at a higher level than he UN projected, not leveling off at 11 billion or whatever.

Quite simply, infinite growth is an oxymoron.
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Old 10-08-2013, 19:38   #192
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Re: Climate Change

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Yes, it is still GROWING, and the growth rate is sustaining at a higher level than he UN projected, not leveling off at 11 billion or whatever.

Quite simply, infinite growth is an oxymoron.
"it is likely that world population will peak at nine billion in the 2050ís, a half-century sooner than generally anticipated, followed by a sharp decline. One could argue that this is a good thing, in view of the planetís limited carrying capacity. But, when demographic dynamics turn, the world will have to confront a different set of problems."

Read more at The End of Population Growth by Sanjeev Sanyal - Project Syndicate

even the UN says pop growth will peak in 2100, and after that the replacement rates will be negative, its not growth forever,

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Old 10-08-2013, 21:56   #193
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Re: Climate Change

The Smith bloke was right when he said that the real wealth of nations reside in the skills of it's peoples. We became wealthy by learning how to best value add to resources not because we "grabbed" them. Grabbing them tends to be counter productive in the longer term.

We really don't know what the world carrying capacity is, according to Malthus and the Club of Rome we should all have starved to death by now and instead almost everyone on earth is better fed. The small famines we still have are a political problem and not because of any deficiency in food supply.

Most plastics are made from hydrocarbon gasses, petrochemical plants turn natural gas into feed stocks for plastics manufacturers. Hydrocarbons = hydrogen and carbon, plenty of both of them about.

If you had told the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk that there will be 600 odd tourists going from New York to Paris in one of those one day someone would have had you committed.

What do we do if they take away our engines? Learn to sail again.
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Old 10-08-2013, 22:49   #194
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Re: Climate Change

I remember seeing a piece on ice cores in the antarctic. In the same way one can see the history of a tree in it's growth rings you can see the earths history in the air deposits on the ice, year by year. It went back something like 600,000 years. One of the most interesting observations was that in around 1973 to 6 there was a marked lowering of co2 in the atmosphere. Just happens to coincide with the oil shortage, embargo. What if we would have continued on that course? Would we be having this conversation? That effort and awareness was quashed because it wasn't good for the oil industry. we don't need to sell less product, sell more more more. I'm not all that optimistic. I see the big biusiness as far more pervasive and powerful. They have bought and now own the representative's that might focus on energy matters.
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Old 10-08-2013, 23:53   #195
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Re: Climate Change

Aha, of that 600,000 years about 65% or so were ice ages the last of which ended only 10,000 or so years ago. Since I like to sail in nice warm water in just my underpants and not amongst ice floes and bergs with freezing temperatures in a survival suit perhaps we should apply the precautionary principal, not risk another ice age and burn up all the fossil fuels we can lay our hands on. Might help provided of course that the greenhouse theory is correct and not just another fashionable theory supported only by computer models with assumed inputs.

Even with a fairly intense rate of research it will be decades before we know what is really going on.

The increases in power costs in Germany have lead to 800,000 people having their power disconnected. These are poor people not the middle class folks who have installed solar panels and whose power is now subsidized. They were once net power exporters and now import nuclear generated power from France and are cranking up coal fired power station construction to replace their nuclear plants which were shut down.

One hears that nuclear is so dangerous yet thousands of US navy personnel have lived in little metal tubes with reactors and I don't hear of the US navy being successfully sued for consequent health problems.

The big, bad oil industry only sells what we want to buy and they are the same people who are creating cheap gas in the USA which is becoming a major reducer of CO2 from power stations because it burns cleaner than coal. They are also contributing to the return of industry to the US which has to be good for jobs for the battlers.

Big business is not the problem, when was the last time you heard of big business hiring a torturer or funding weapons proliferation, big government and it's pursuit of trendy causes is the problem.
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