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Old 11-07-2016, 02:19   #61
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

All this changing of police enforcement in non US countries is because of American influence on govts.. The disease like American lifestyle is spreading. Its not normal to have to get out of your car and lay on the ground at gunpoint.. What if the cops had a hard day and slips on the trigger whilst you are on the ground.. What if the cop is a fake cop and trys to shoot you whilst your concealed carry weapon is out of reach.. I doubt you are ever going to be in a situation where you can use your gun unless its in your hand first pointing at someone.. You guys watch too many brainwashing movies.. They are all just propaganda.. America should vote Trump in and instead of a wall build a mirror so you can all look at yourselves.. The American mindset is bizarre.
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Old 11-07-2016, 04:31   #62
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And at least at this time I'm not aware that Philando Castile's fatal shooting was a case ofresisting. According to his girl friend and what she was saying to the police officer, the cop asked for his id and when he reached for it, the cop shot him..
Right, I believe the girlfriend.... I would lie for my wife, as I am sure you would lie for your wife/husband. Even if she does believe it she would not be a witness as she is partial.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming View Post
Are you black? I think your perception might change based on experience. I completely agree that respect and cooperation are needed with police. But I wonder how the same steps taken by a person of color is precieved by some police officers? If you are not differenly pigmented, Im not sure your own experience will translate. Of course, I can not know as I am white so my thoughts are speculation.

I just think 'rare' events are happening too often. Yes, the public probably does need to be educated. But Tamir Rice never had a chance to comply with officer requests. He was 12.
Tamir rice pointed his pellet gun at police, after he pointed the gun at random people in the street. They had a good reason to shoot the wannabe thug.

Police do not care what colour you are, nearly all departments have black police officers in them, and they are treated the same as the white officers. White privilege does not exist. If I am pulled over, and start making fruitive gestures, I too will be shot, and will deserve it.

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Respect can only be earned. Not imposed.


They earn it every day. When they run into burning buildings to save people, perform CPR on a dying child, sending wife beating men to jail, catching paedophiles raping children, stopping drunk drivers, ECT.

What you see on the news is a tiny fraction of what they do each day to keep us safe.



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Originally Posted by adoxograph View Post
I don't understand why anyone would carry a loaded concealed gun. I'm 53 years old and never ever in my life was in a situation where I felt the need for carrying a weapon.

But then I was born in Austria, lived in Germany, the UK and France before moving to Australia and can't really assess the situation in the US.
Because I work in the cellular industry.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cell...ient=firefox-b
Honestly, robbing us will net you more money then robbing a bank, as most times we keep over $100K in inventory.




Listen everyone who has no understanding of American policing.
Right now the media in this country is trying to paint cops as bad guys, it fits the narrative they want people to believe. When you do google crooked cop tons of results pop up, because people are trying to sell lies.
Crooked cops do exist, but even if it is the most crooked cop in the world, you do what they say. They have been given authority over us.

People who comply with police and the laws do not get shot.
Fake gun? shot. Running from a cop while reaching inside your pants? Shot.
Resisting arrest while reaching into your pants? Shot. Walking to the local bar for a good time out? Not shot. Visiting a tourist attraction while black? Not shot. Pulled over for speeding? Not shot.

This is not Uzbekistan where a cop demands $50 and then shoots you if you dont give it to them. None of these people in the news is innocent. All of them put the police in an "me or them" situation. When it comes down to a man with a gun resisting arrest or the cop arresting that person, I choose the cop.

So to the Bahamas I say. If you send a person to America black white or blue, tell them not to wave a gun at a cop, not to buy drugs, or commit any felonies. Tell them to enjoy themselves. Because this county is one of the safest in the world for tourists.

To those who are anti-gun I say. Living here and working here, close by bad cities, you can be protected or not. The chance of needing to use a gun is so slim, you most likely could win a small lotto before you ever pull your gun. Having a lot of folks with guns however can stop crime. Some examples...
99% of mass killing happen in gun free zones.
If 2 or 3 designated drivers in the gay nightclub had a gun the criminal would not have spent 3 hours killing people.
People with guns stop mass killings almost weekly, thou you will never hear it on the news.
12 Times Mass Shootings Were Stopped by Good Guys With Guns
That is just a few examples, and number 5 speaks again to me personally.
Good day.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:03   #63
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

=sailnow2011

You are entirely correct in your main emphasis which I suspect is emphasising that the great majority of police in the USA are honest and law abiding. I don't think many would dispute this.

But, it's not about the behaviour of police as much as its about 'perceptions'. Perceptions are that particular if you are coloured in the USA, therefore a coloured visitor, you are highly likely to be treated differently.

The other thing being pointed out in this thread is that given the 'expectations' police have that they are simply to be obeyed and obeyed quickly, as even you seem to expect, then for people not accustomed to this blanket obedience that you call respect, visiting your country could put them in danger if they do not know how to behave as 'expected'. Such as knowing to remain in a car and not get out.

And finally, just so you know, even In the USA, a wife or girlfriend who is present when something happens is still a witness regardless of whether they are impartial or not. And NO, I personally wouldn't lie for my wife in something such as a crime.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:31   #64
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

WOW, more hatred from there same ignorant people. As usual the vocal minority spews trash while the logical silent majority attends to life unaware of the alleged impending doom.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:40   #65
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailnow2011 View Post
Right, I believe the girlfriend.... I would lie for my wife, as I am sure you would lie for your wife/husband. Even if she does believe it she would not be a witness as she is partial.




Tamir rice pointed his pellet gun at police, after he pointed the gun at random people in the street. They had a good reason to shoot the wannabe thug.

Police do not care what colour you are, nearly all departments have black police officers in them, and they are treated the same as the white officers. White privilege does not exist. If I am pulled over, and start making fruitive gestures, I too will be shot, and will deserve it.


They earn it every day. When they run into burning buildings to save people, perform CPR on a dying child, sending wife beating men to jail, catching paedophiles raping children, stopping drunk drivers, ECT.

What you see on the news is a tiny fraction of what they do each day to keep us safe.





Because I work in the cellular industry.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cell...ient=firefox-b
Honestly, robbing us will net you more money then robbing a bank, as most times we keep over $100K in inventory.




Listen everyone who has no understanding of American policing.
Right now the media in this country is trying to paint cops as bad guys, it fits the narrative they want people to believe. When you do google crooked cop tons of results pop up, because people are trying to sell lies.
Crooked cops do exist, but even if it is the most crooked cop in the world, you do what they say. They have been given authority over us.

People who comply with police and the laws do not get shot.
Fake gun? shot. Running from a cop while reaching inside your pants? Shot.
Resisting arrest while reaching into your pants? Shot. Walking to the local bar for a good time out? Not shot. Visiting a tourist attraction while black? Not shot. Pulled over for speeding? Not shot.

This is not Uzbekistan where a cop demands $50 and then shoots you if you dont give it to them. None of these people in the news is innocent. All of them put the police in an "me or them" situation. When it comes down to a man with a gun resisting arrest or the cop arresting that person, I choose the cop.

So to the Bahamas I say. If you send a person to America black white or blue, tell them not to wave a gun at a cop, not to buy drugs, or commit any felonies. Tell them to enjoy themselves. Because this county is one of the safest in the world for tourists.

To those who are anti-gun I say. Living here and working here, close by bad cities, you can be protected or not. The chance of needing to use a gun is so slim, you most likely could win a small lotto before you ever pull your gun. Having a lot of folks with guns however can stop crime. Some examples...
99% of mass killing happen in gun free zones.
If 2 or 3 designated drivers in the gay nightclub had a gun the criminal would not have spent 3 hours killing people.
People with guns stop mass killings almost weekly, thou you will never hear it on the news.
12 Times Mass Shootings Were Stopped by Good Guys With Guns
That is just a few examples, and number 5 speaks again to me personally.
Good day.
Why was the killer allowed 3 hours without the police showing up?
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:49   #66
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

Early on in this thread I posted a source of actual data around the number of deaths at the hands of police in the USA. In 2015 (the last full year of data), blacks were killed at more than twice the rate of white (7.27/million vs 2.93/M). Latinos also come in higher at 3.51/M, as do Native Americans @ 3.4/M. Interestingly, Asian folks are killed at a much lower rate: 1.34/M.

The whole culture around police interactions in the USA is DEFINITELY worth understanding, especially for visitors. Most cruisers are from developed countries, and I know of no other such country which demands the kind of submissive, fear-based approach to police encounters that sailnow2011 outlines -- but I believe him/her.

I'd expect this to be the case in many third-world countries, so knowing the USA falls into a similar category is very useful for world travellers. And based on the numbers, I too would be hesitant if my skin colour were not white.

Personal observation from someone who recently spent five months travelling slowly and camping through 17 of the United States. Along with the almost universally positive experiences we had, I came away with the unexpected impression that the USA is a highly policed/militarized country. There are military bases all over the place. And there seems to be police of various flavours everywhere; from federal and state to regional, county, city, highway, border ... (and what the heck is a Constable anyway ), the police seem to be everywhere. This surprised me given that we mostly travelled outside of the large urban areas. The police presence seemed ever-present.

The only significant encounter I had with officials (outside of crossing the borders) was the citizenship checkstops as we travelled close to (but many miles from) Mexico. We were stopped three separate times (and saw many other checkstops). Each time the question was always something like: "Are you an American Citizen?" To which I responded "No, Canadian." At this point the officers waved me through; no additional questions, no id required. I'm assuming they ran my plates, but it was pretty fast.

The encounters were quick and easy for me, but I did wonder: What if I was something other than Celtic white? What it I was black, or of Mexican origin. We have lots of Mexican-Canadians after all. Would these encounters have been so easy? I kinda doubt it.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:54   #67
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

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WOW, more hatred from there same ignorant people. As usual the vocal minority spews trash while the logical silent majority attends to life unaware of the alleged impending doom.

Silence makes a great forum.






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Old 11-07-2016, 05:59   #68
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

Mike,

A really good post and good observations from someone visiting from outside the country.

I've known a few number of police (even have family members who are LEO). There has always been a "us vs them" theme in their conversations but I think it's more delineated and sharper in contrast now than previously.

The US is what I call the Land of Rules and Regulations. Having spent time outside the country, when I've come back to the US the contrast in the number of signs, rules and LEO is stark. You don't notice it as much when you're living in it every day, it slowly encroaches into your life.

Yes you need to act submissive to LEO's (anywhere). Rights and all that doesn't do you a bit of good if your dead or locked in a cage somewhere. I avoid contact with them at all costs.
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Old 11-07-2016, 06:35   #69
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

If I was a cop in a country where much of the citizenry were armed,I probably would not approach many situations without my gun drawn.

I live in Canada where armed citizens are criminal(or crazy) only.
I have been stopped or questioned by many Canadian cops over my lifetime & never once was a gun pulled on me.

I have traveled a fair amount in the States & several times been traffic stopped by cops with a gun aimed at me-not every time,but enough to scare the sh-t out of me & my family needlessly.

I think this is a good educational discussion of a cultural topic that cruisers need to be aware of. I am a visitor only when in the USA or other countries & I believe I should be aware of other country's customs & culture.

Len
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:04   #70
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

The average training length for a new police recruit in the USA is just 15 weeks. Very little of that time is actually spent learning to deal with shooting situations. The average street beat cop will most likely only unholster and draw their weapon once a month while in higher crime area task force cops may draw their firearms much more frequently. The much more experienced and trained task force cops are not generally pulling over citizens and writing traffic tickets or walking beat and doing stop and frisks. In other words, in instances where controversial officer involved shootings take place most often... Traffic stops and street detainment... it is these young and often less experienced officers who have the least training and time on duty.

So, like Canada and Germany, increase length of training to about 25 weeks and spend more of that time on shooter situations.


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Old 11-07-2016, 07:07   #71
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Early on in this thread I posted a source of actual data around the number of deaths at the hands of police in the USA. In 2015 (the last full year of data), blacks were killed at more than twice the rate of white (7.27/million vs 2.93/M). Latinos also come in higher at 3.51/M, as do Native Americans @ 3.4/M. Interestingly, Asian folks are killed at a much lower rate: 1.34/M.

The whole culture around police interactions in the USA is DEFINITELY worth understanding, especially for visitors. Most cruisers are from developed countries, and I know of no other such country which demands the kind of submissive, fear-based approach to police encounters that sailnow2011 outlines -- but I believe him/her.

I'd expect this to be the case in many third-world countries, so knowing the USA falls into a similar category is very useful for world travellers. And based on the numbers, I too would be hesitant if my skin colour were not white.

Personal observation from someone who recently spent five months travelling slowly and camping through 17 of the United States. Along with the almost universally positive experiences we had, I came away with the unexpected impression that the USA is a highly policed/militarized country. There are military bases all over the place. And there seems to be police of various flavours everywhere; from federal and state to regional, county, city, highway, border ... (and what the heck is a Constable anyway ), the police seem to be everywhere. This surprised me given that we mostly travelled outside of the large urban areas. The police presence seemed ever-present.

The only significant encounter I had with officials (outside of crossing the borders) was the citizenship checkstops as we travelled close to (but many miles from) Mexico. We were stopped three separate times (and saw many other checkstops). Each time the question was always something like: "Are you an American Citizen?" To which I responded "No, Canadian." At this point the officers waved me through; no additional questions, no id required. I'm assuming they ran my plates, but it was pretty fast.

The encounters were quick and easy for me, but I did wonder: What if I was something other than Celtic white? What it I was black, or of Mexican origin. We have lots of Mexican-Canadians after all. Would these encounters have been so easy? I kinda doubt it.

I've noticed that same thing. We've been refitting a boat in grand Island, NY and the police of various levels are EVERYWHERE! police, Sherrif, state patrol, Constables, military not to mention all the water police and coast guard on the water! I see more enforcement authorities on the water there in a weekend then I've seen in 30 years sailing on the Canadian side of Lake Ontario!
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:34   #72
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

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I have traveled a fair amount in the States & several times been traffic stopped by cops with a gun aimed at me-not every time,but enough to scare the sh-t out of me & my family needlessly.


Len
Wow! That just floors me!... Roadside Cops have pulled you over and have a gun drawn and aimed at you,... more than once??

I am born/raised/live in a border town all my life and have spent a lot of my life in the USA and have never experienced something like that.
You must have appeared dangerous or something...

Bob
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:51   #73
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

funny how when i say usa is so bludi violent i am wrestled to ground, yet others say same thing and are praised. you folks got headupassosis in many ways. more bullies per capita, more guns per capita and more alternatively caused violence.
usa is definitively THE most violent nation. usa brings violence into other nations in the name of protection, but no one is being protected--see iran, afganistan, yada yada yada. all induced into madness by usa. no one else.
as is same with war on drugs war on guns war on yada yada yada war is only for corporations to gain money not for protection nor other allegedly altruistic rationales .
the statement regarding violence in usa being out of control is reinforced by the alleged NEED for armaments by citizenry.
WAKE UP AMERICA.
ditch the violence. yŠll bitch how dangerous it is in XXXX country but do not pay attention to own backyard wherein this violence in planet originates. yes usa is the most violent nation on planet, both in country and out of country.
wake up and see it.
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:04   #74
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

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Respect can only be earned. Not imposed.


My wife and I had this debate the other day. My point was how can you respect an institution that pulls over a citizen who does co-operate and then is shot, basically for being black. It sickened me when I saw the phone video of Philando Castikle lying dead beside his gf with the cop screaming hysterically. It was obvious to me the cop was out of control
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:08   #75
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Re: Bahamas Warns Citizens About USA

Zeehag,
It would be very hard to counter what you say as for every peacekeeping iniative the USA has ever conducted, internally or externally...
there would probably be 10's of ones that promoted violence and bloodshed.

I will be crucified for this but I believe the NRA and its actions are a primary cause for the level of violence the USA is/has been experiencing internally.

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