Cruisers Forum

Join CruisersForum Today

Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-02-2010, 06:07   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Cittadini v R R v Cittadini [2009] NSWCCA 302 (18 December 2009)
Here's the story from the court. Too long to post here.
Mix and match of stuff, but essentially a deviation from the plans of a complicated keel with a 'who done it?' thrown in.

ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2010, 09:01   #32
Moderator Emeritus
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,932
Images: 5
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I agree it was poor workmanship, but to pick out someone as a scapegoat who knew nothing about it and throw him in jail for 3 years is a bit over the top.

Where you work, do you feel that responsible for the actions of your employees??
I don't know how big the shop was but it seems to me a manager would know if the keel was being reworked on one of their million dollar yachts. I worked in telco for a number of years. In the US a significasnt outage could lead to jail time for the CEO of the telephony company involved. This may have changed. In Canada we didn't take it that far but every outage would lead to an investigation and significasnt ones could result in penalties to the company. The CEO of a telco would have no way of controlling the occurances of outages beyond be sure that his company took the subject very seriously and put in place controls.

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2010, 09:28   #33
Registered User
Randy's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Searunner 31
Posts: 601
Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
The CEO of a telco would have no way of controlling the occurances of outages beyond be sure that his company took the subject very seriously and put in place controls.

The CEO has ALL the control by creating a management structure that goes from himself down to the lowest level laborer that includes designated accountability and responsibility for every person in that chain of command. The accountability is enforced by the level of supervision to subordinates that is viewed to be necessary to successfully complete whatever task is undertaken. When lower level personnel make mistakes the mistakes can be corrected if the supervision is in place, if it is not corrected proper supervision was not in place and that is the responsibility of the next higher level of supervisor all the way up to the CEO.
Randy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2010, 10:20   #34
Registered User
anjou's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Malvernshire, on the sunny side of the hill.
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser
Posts: 1,905
There is a duty of care to the client/customer by the company.
The CEO, through his team is ultimately responsible and that is reflected in the high salary
anjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2010, 12:10   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Hey guys, read the case. It wasn't a yacht building company. The company did stainless work for the auto and other industry. The owner of the company was a sailor that the owner of the boat wanted to build it for him "pay as you go". Both the owner of the company and the certified welder who oversaw and did most of the welding provided proof that they wouldn't allow the keel to be cut in that way to achieve the shape and function needed. The keel was a complicated hydrolic lift keel. They had no reason not to "send it out" if they couldn't achieve the results in the shop. It wouldn't have cost them or made them anything. Someone did it but who? No evidence. No case. Thrown out. I think the lesson we should look at is that if we want something, make sure we have what we want. If we are having something made by those that don't have experience in what we want them to make, beware. Take responsibility for what we are doing. Follow the plans and make sure the ones we have do our work do also. And perhaps stay with tried and true uncomplicated designs if you don't want to be the experiment. There are other things in question as far as the deaths go. Where was the liferaft? Boats capsize. What was the emergency procedure and why wasn't it employed? Almost seems like the captain, who had the boat built in the manner he did without overseing it adequately and failed to be able to care for his crew in an emergency was trying to pass the buck if anything. We all take huge risks in stepping on a boat. Anything can happen and things do even without equiptment failure. We need to take responsibility for the choices we make, plan for the worst and do our best.
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2010, 20:36   #36
Registered User
chala's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: gone sailing Australia
Boat: RR370
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by ConradG View Post
And also when hiring something make sure the item is safe to use.
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2010, 21:33   #37
Registered User
bewitched's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 885
Images: 3
The civil & building engineering industry addresses the problem thus: It makes someone personally responsible / liable. In Hong Kong, this person is called the Authorised Person (AP). Other countries have a different name, but the concept is largely the same:

The AP gives his endorsement that the design meets the appropriate design standards & codes.

The contractor builds the works

The AP gives his endorsement that the works comply to the design.

Any structural problems in the future, the AP's head is on the block. Any structural modifications also require an AP's endosement

Surely a similar system exists in the boatbuilding industry? If it does not, is to the detriment of both the industry and the end user.

Surely, it is up to the boating industry to set standards and ensure compliance.

Surely it is up to the boat building industry to bring charges against those who endanger life by endorsing substandard work or operating outside the endorsement process.
bewitched is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2010, 14:24   #38
Registered User
Geminidawn's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mariveles, Bataan, Philippines Islands
Boat: Wharram Pahi 63 Catamaran, Sailwind 27 Mono, Ring 20, Lee Fisher 16, Banks Dory, Dunlop Dive RIB
Posts: 141
Images: 13
Too right! As a boatbuilder to trade I can only pray that I can finish my career in the knowlege that of all the boats that I have built, or repaired, that no one has come to harm or difficulty because of something I have done or failed to do.
About 50% of the repair work I do is re-doing some one elses shoddy work and it is both frightening and a disgrace with some of the things I have come accross.
Whatever I put my hands to if it is separating man from the sea then I am responsible and that reflects in my work.
I have recently fabricated a keel where the finished weight when filled will be a required 914kg. Those who have seen the construction from the start have said I have over engineered it but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night otherwise. Hearing stories like this has only strenghtened my ressolve.

Geminidawn is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat builder found guilty of killing 4 MarkJ Cruising News & Events 1 01-04-2009 22:57
Looking for builder Logans Run Monohull Sailboats 3 21-03-2009 23:09
Boat builder - Interior Bryttne Construction, Maintenance & Refit 6 25-10-2008 03:30
Looking for a builder rob denney Multihull Sailboats 4 30-04-2008 08:33
I Cheated and I feel so Guilty Daddy's Dream Monohull Sailboats 1 23-01-2008 02:05

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2015 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:43.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.