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Old 08-02-2010, 06:07   #31
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Cittadini v R R v Cittadini [2009] NSWCCA 302 (18 December 2009)
Here's the story from the court. Too long to post here.
Mix and match of stuff, but essentially a deviation from the plans of a complicated keel with a 'who done it?' thrown in.

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Old 08-02-2010, 09:01   #32
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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I agree it was poor workmanship, but to pick out someone as a scapegoat who knew nothing about it and throw him in jail for 3 years is a bit over the top.

Where you work, do you feel that responsible for the actions of your employees??
I don't know how big the shop was but it seems to me a manager would know if the keel was being reworked on one of their million dollar yachts. I worked in telco for a number of years. In the US a significasnt outage could lead to jail time for the CEO of the telephony company involved. This may have changed. In Canada we didn't take it that far but every outage would lead to an investigation and significasnt ones could result in penalties to the company. The CEO of a telco would have no way of controlling the occurances of outages beyond be sure that his company took the subject very seriously and put in place controls.

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Old 08-02-2010, 09:28   #33
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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
The CEO of a telco would have no way of controlling the occurances of outages beyond be sure that his company took the subject very seriously and put in place controls.

The CEO has ALL the control by creating a management structure that goes from himself down to the lowest level laborer that includes designated accountability and responsibility for every person in that chain of command. The accountability is enforced by the level of supervision to subordinates that is viewed to be necessary to successfully complete whatever task is undertaken. When lower level personnel make mistakes the mistakes can be corrected if the supervision is in place, if it is not corrected proper supervision was not in place and that is the responsibility of the next higher level of supervisor all the way up to the CEO.
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:20   #34
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There is a duty of care to the client/customer by the company.
The CEO, through his team is ultimately responsible and that is reflected in the high salary
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:10   #35
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Hey guys, read the case. It wasn't a yacht building company. The company did stainless work for the auto and other industry. The owner of the company was a sailor that the owner of the boat wanted to build it for him "pay as you go". Both the owner of the company and the certified welder who oversaw and did most of the welding provided proof that they wouldn't allow the keel to be cut in that way to achieve the shape and function needed. The keel was a complicated hydrolic lift keel. They had no reason not to "send it out" if they couldn't achieve the results in the shop. It wouldn't have cost them or made them anything. Someone did it but who? No evidence. No case. Thrown out. I think the lesson we should look at is that if we want something, make sure we have what we want. If we are having something made by those that don't have experience in what we want them to make, beware. Take responsibility for what we are doing. Follow the plans and make sure the ones we have do our work do also. And perhaps stay with tried and true uncomplicated designs if you don't want to be the experiment. There are other things in question as far as the deaths go. Where was the liferaft? Boats capsize. What was the emergency procedure and why wasn't it employed? Almost seems like the captain, who had the boat built in the manner he did without overseing it adequately and failed to be able to care for his crew in an emergency was trying to pass the buck if anything. We all take huge risks in stepping on a boat. Anything can happen and things do even without equiptment failure. We need to take responsibility for the choices we make, plan for the worst and do our best.
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Old 08-02-2010, 20:36   #36
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Originally Posted by ConradG View Post
And also when hiring something make sure the item is safe to use.
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Old 08-02-2010, 21:33   #37
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The civil & building engineering industry addresses the problem thus: It makes someone personally responsible / liable. In Hong Kong, this person is called the Authorised Person (AP). Other countries have a different name, but the concept is largely the same:

The AP gives his endorsement that the design meets the appropriate design standards & codes.

The contractor builds the works

The AP gives his endorsement that the works comply to the design.

Any structural problems in the future, the AP's head is on the block. Any structural modifications also require an AP's endosement

Surely a similar system exists in the boatbuilding industry? If it does not, is to the detriment of both the industry and the end user.

Surely, it is up to the boating industry to set standards and ensure compliance.

Surely it is up to the boat building industry to bring charges against those who endanger life by endorsing substandard work or operating outside the endorsement process.
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Old 18-02-2010, 14:24   #38
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Too right! As a boatbuilder to trade I can only pray that I can finish my career in the knowlege that of all the boats that I have built, or repaired, that no one has come to harm or difficulty because of something I have done or failed to do.
About 50% of the repair work I do is re-doing some one elses shoddy work and it is both frightening and a disgrace with some of the things I have come accross.
Whatever I put my hands to if it is separating man from the sea then I am responsible and that reflects in my work.
I have recently fabricated a keel where the finished weight when filled will be a required 914kg. Those who have seen the construction from the start have said I have over engineered it but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night otherwise. Hearing stories like this has only strenghtened my ressolve.

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