Australia approves dumping in Great Barrier reef

[Oceanride007]

Barra, I see your point a clearer. I suppose you mean the solar power installers, insulation installers you question there enthusiasm for the profit motive rather than green credentials. Yep got that, not much hope for us as a species is there. Still we got to work with what we got, to be seen to be doing the right thing, be wary of mission creep. We need to remind Government that regulation is not a dirty word but our salvation. Sorry about de**er word, apparently its not allowed.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

Barra, I see your point a clearer. I suppose you mean the solar power installers, insulation installers you question there enthusiasm for the profit motive rather than green credentials. Yep got that, not much hope for us as a species is there. Still we got to work with what we got, to be seen to be doing the right thing, be wary of mission creep. We need to remind Government that regulation is not a dirty word but our salvation. Sorry about de**er word, apparently its not allowed.

Blind faith. The Government of any persuasion rarly gets it right. let alone a coalition with the loony greens.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Barra

Sorry mate but im not a climate change denier??? (why does anyone who does not automatically and unthinkingly bow down to the latest green issue get labelled this???)

In fact until recently i worked in renewable energy where I came face to face with a tonne of fast buck merchants hiding behind the cloak of doing something for global warming.

In your book they might be climate change heroes but from the inside of that industry its really little different to mining in terms of mistruths and opportunism (though far less regulated)

Yes the climate change industry.

[David_Old_Jersey]

As long as Australia invests the money made wisely for the future (post China buying all your dirt!) then a price worth paying........as wont be a longterm ever increasing scenario. Why? Well, apart from one day China will be built so won't need so much Aussie dirt, they are also defying economic gravity with a debt to GDP ratio of approx 200% (up from 125% in last 5 years and still growing) ....sooner or later gonna go pop - they always do.

BBC News - Will China shake the world again?

So, the solution is coming - just gotta be careful what yer wish for.........

[RigelKent]

Could use some clarification as political labels can be confusing, for example it is important to understand that the Liberal party (NLP) in Australia is actually conservative.

Are 'greenies' members of the Green party? Or are greenies some other organisation?

In politics, there is nothing as valuable as a good problem. The only problem with a good problem is finding a solution, at which point the good problem is no longer there to use as a campaign tool. Greenies are a good problem for conservative politicians, who can easily argue against the environmental hand-wringing and protect Laissez-faire capitalism. Climate deniers are a good problem for progressive politicians who want to use the pretext of environmental protection as a means to consolidate their own power.

I'm sure we all appreciate the truth of politicians and how their lips move. That doesn't mean we have to stoop to the same level and deny ourselves the benefit of a fair debate here.

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

...Well, apart from one day China will be built so won't need so much Aussie dirt, they are also defying economic gravity with a debt to GDP ratio of approx 200% (up from 125% in last 5 years and still growing)....

I thought China was holding the world's debt, in particularly 8% of US debt? Who does China owe all that debt to? Is it owed to private Chinese investors?

[Oceanride007]

Rigel, If you talking to me I called myself "Green" in response to a earlier comment about loony greens or something worse.
Its a bit rough I don't like some other names options that are offered. Coops doesn't like us using names, but its convenient to use handles. If I could've I would have voted for Libs if Mal was leader, yep I'm one of those whatever it is.

It shouldn't be a Left right argument but it is, the right of politics is all gunho towards using resources to gain economic wealth at the risk of soiling the nest, the left less so but certainly more caring towards subsequent generations.
If you don't believe, do your own poll ask who they vote for, then ask about their global warming belief. Sometimes you come across religious people, who deny it but on the basis that the great creator wouldn't have designed it this way.
Personally, at best all we can do is postpone the inevitable by a few years, best thing I do is to be as energy frugal as I can. I've also been a whistle blower, but it wasn't a happy experience. Next best thing I can do is get a boat, not to save energy, but escape in my own lifeboat.

[Oceanride007]

DOJ: Not bloody likely, no rainy day politics round here, no sovereign fund. We got a cycle of the Libs (in power now) who deregulate but diminish debt. Then we kick them out when the other mob (Labor) who promise to regulate, be kind to refugees, balance the budget. Instead overspend on social reforms & help out a few mates. WE got some toxic politics in recent years and less co-operation. Up to recent we intended being kind to the environment, now such people with those thoughts stink.

[RigelKent]

No I wasn't referring to you specifically OceanRide007.

The left-right, blue-red dichotomy breaks down readily - consider that exploiting the environment for short term gain / long term pain is in no way a true conservative value. Just as a legacy of blow out debt and Internet censorship is not a true progressive value. No matter who we vote for we vote against our actual values, always forced to choose between the 'lesser of two weevils' in our own estimation.

I only wish people would debate the credible arguments of either side - both sides have them - rather than take the easy way and only take shots at the less supportable arguments. For example one could argue against a person who says "it was cold and snowy in New Jersey this year, therefore global warming is a farce" or you could argue against a more deserving argument that says "the contribution of man-made CO2 is insignificant in its impact on climate change, being overshadowed by naturally occurring emissions, the earths axial and orbital precession around the sun, and changes in solar activity outside man's control." From the opposite perspective, a conservative could avoid making the easy argument against 'greenies' who are opposed to any kind of mining and instead answer why many conservative/NLP members continue to support the mining and burning of coal when there is so much evidence of the environmental damage that results - making their argument of supposed economic benefit for future generations in great detail.

I'm often disappointed that often people make the easy arguments just to shore up their own unchanging point of view rather than look for a new consensus as you were suggesting.

Here's a nautical question - does a navy navigator know where international waters end? Is the explanation in this article sound? Or are lips once again moving?

Australian naval incursions blamed on errors | SBS News

[Capt Rottnest]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

As long as Australia invests the money made wisely for the future

That's a mighty big assumption.
We've blown it all away, already.
This aint Norway you know..
Politicians spend to buy votes.. nothing gets "invested" lol.
Besides, boom and busting is a way of life here (at least on the West coast, where all the dirt is), we just kind of tumble long with it.. and wear these:

[RigelKent]

Originally Posted by Capt Rottnest

T...we just kind of tumble long with it...

Don't include me in the tumbling please, I don't want to be duped by vote buying politicians of any ilk.

"Just because it is, doesn't mean it should be"

Looks like the politicians are blaming the sailors citing professional misconduct for not observing Indonesian territorial boundaries in their operations. Apparently they aren't buying Immigration Minister's Scott Morrison's protests that the incursions were 'forthright.'

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/mistakes-by-sailors-blamed-for-breach-of-indonesian-water-20140219-3315j.html

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/indon-incursion-review-set-for-release-20140218-32yaq.html

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Coops

Perhaps also the tarnishing of all the folks that do not agree with the climate change proponents as "deniers" should stop also. Those who do not particularly believe, or even care, do not start threads about their views and try and push it on others.

Yes of course. If it seems that the house is on fire, those who want to announce that the house is on fire should first think of those who don't particularly believe the house is on fire, or don't care whether it is. Got it.


To get back on point, sort of...

I've been seeking a 20,000 ft viewpoint on development decisions like Abbot Pt, and the similar decisions being made in Canada, and that has led me to look at things like the looming Trans-Pacific Partnership, which is unprecedented in that it includes some autocratic regimes like China as full partners, AND because it apparently includes provisions that put corporate interests over national interests. And also because it's all in secret and we don't get to vote on it.

The following has an axe to grind, and it's somewhat simplistic, and, um, it's in the form of a comic strip, but I think it puts across many of the economic fundamentals in a fairly clear manner.

Without further ado: "The Trans-Pacific Partnership and Free Trade"

[perchance]

Originally Posted by Teleman

Back to the dumping...........
I'm a lifelong conservationist, I live on this stretch of coast, I fish and dive on the reef.
The dump area is more than 80 kms from the nearest coral. All that's being dumped is seabed on seabed. No problem, no impact.

Note: I said I'm a conservationist. I hate greenies. It's like a fanatical new religion, blind faith and group-speak instead of facts and science.

So are you saying they are dumping beyond the environment? Out there with that ship the front fell off of?

[Coops]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Yes of course. If it seems that the house is on fire, those who want to announce that the house is on fire should first think of those who don't particularly believe the house is on fire, or don't care whether it is. Got it.

Glad that you wrote seems.Makes a difference

Coops.

[Capt Rottnest]

Originally Posted by RigelKent

Don't include me in the tumbling please, I don't want to be duped by vote buying politicians of any ilk.

Wait till property crashes, all it takes is a little more unemployment. I can see the baby boomers tumbling from here...

[downunder]

Originally Posted by RigelKent

Don't include me in the tumbling please, I don't want to be duped by vote buying politicians of any ilk.

"Just because it is, doesn't mean it should be"

Looks like the politicians are blaming the sailors citing professional misconduct for not observing Indonesian territorial boundaries in their operations. Apparently they aren't buying Immigration Minister's Scott Morrison's protests that the incursions were 'forthright.'

Mistakes by sailors blamed for breach of Indonesian water

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/indon-incursion-review-set-for-release-20140218-32yaq.html

Who in Aust cares about the so called intrusion. We all know Indonesia has no navy to speak of and in past has after receiving a distress message in the Indonesian rescue area called on Aust vessels to do the rescues. They(Ind) really suckered the previous Labour govt. Perhaps they want us to give them some more vessels as we have just given Malaysia.

Indonesia police often have little fuel for their own police dingys and don't bother to patrol areas illegial immigrants leave from.

Its all about Indonesia playing their own politics.

At least the flow of people seems to have almost ceased which will be good for both countries.

I think it was a brilliant move to send them back in unsinkable liferafts to get around the issue of them being returned in leaky boats.