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Old 24-08-2014, 07:31   #76
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

My issue with the Dekker, Watson, & Sunderland trips is not whether they were capable or not, it's whether they were aware of the risks- I mean really aware. Several scientific studies have shown that even into our 20's, teenagers are terrible at judging risk. I'd be surprised if even 5% of teenagers are really aware of their own mortality.

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Old 24-08-2014, 13:58   #77
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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If I did a race but excluded all the bouys and just went straight to the finnish line would you present me with first prize in front of all the other racers?


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Why are all of you so threatened by a child? Big freaking deal. This ISN'T a race. It wasn't the America's cup, it wasn't a round the bouy race...she went around the world. Sorry you(not you Mark, but everyone) feel threatened by it.
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Old 24-08-2014, 14:35   #78
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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Why are all of you so threatened by a child? Big freaking deal. This ISN'T a race. It wasn't the America's cup, it wasn't a round the bouy race...she went around the world. Sorry you(not you Mark, but everyone) feel threatened by it.
I am only threatened by false memory. Remember I am talking about a "record" of being the youngest... which is a dangerous undertaking as it leads to younger and younger people doing it till the children die. Read the first post in this thread. Its this trying to attain some record that sucks till it kills people.

When a lie is perpetuated and becomes someones truth then they try to foiser that 'truth' on everyone else, thats when I get threatened. Lies don't make the world a better place.
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Old 24-08-2014, 15:58   #79
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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Like most, I choose to have an anonymous screen/web presence. Sometimes we will make reference to some aspect of our earlier lives but no anecdote defines any person who has worked a lifetime at many many things.

Along the way I was a school teacher, and that's often what I answer when someone asks one of those nosy pigeonhole questions. One of several assignments was at a facility for urban unwed mothers. Another was at an urban boys' correctional cage. The girls were every bit as mean and vicious as the boys. Some sort of physical ugliness was a daily occurrence. Reading these various comments and my possible naiveté regarding child rearing/abuse is just special in the Dana Carvey/ church lady/SNL fashion.

Some of you guys brag about your service time/exploits. I don't. I don't seek or need your approval. Some folks seem to have their entire self wrapped up in their occupations and insist we know all about it. I'd prefer not to be influenced by your presentation but rather make my own assessment of you and your information by your posts themselves. Many feel differently obviously.

But what really bugs me is when some of you opine or lecture or otherwise talk down to us on virtually any subject. Our group of cruisers are the achievers, the successful by and large, the educated; we have disposable income, know reality from reality tv, and don't need Fox News or MSNBC or you to do our thinking for us.

Well hell, here I am on a soapbox myself. Apologies.

Thanks for your condolences. I sure miss my baby girl. I'm glad I didn't have to make the kind of decisions those others parents did, and I'll concede Miss Dekker seems to be in a class by herself.

The absolute worst part about losing a talented capable child is the effects on the family. My life experiences have allowed me to weather Jen's death better than the others.

My ex, a real high dollar capable, analytical professional has now made a shrine of Jen's bedroom; nothing has been touched, drapes are drawn. A typical teenager, there's an open soft drink on the bookcase, baby-sitting money scattered about. I don't think that's healthy but my opinion hasn't been sought. The two twenty-somethings are in therapy, and Mrs Crab and I are very concerned about one of them.

That's an aspect you don't hear about often. And forget about being lost at sea. What if one of those young boys and girls had been beaten, gang-raped and left for dead? How does that decision look then? And for nothing, IMO.

I think it is irresponsible at best. YMMV . At any rate, I don't want to debate about it. I offered my opinion like everyone else, and mine certainly doesn't count for more than anyone else's.
Dude! chill out.

My comment about you being naive was in relation to you your claim that parents who let their kids sail around the world are 'criminal'. And the abuse I witness is not just teen 'ugliness' but parents who break the bones of infants, starve a child to death, and the most horrid of sexual abuse. These abusive parents commit 'crimes' and are thus criminal towards their children. The Dutch courts in Laura Dekker's case categorically concluded that parents that let their children do what she was to do are NOT abusers and it is not the role of anyone to interfere in this sort of parent decision. I appreciate and accept your view that you would not support such a decision as a parent, neither would I with my children though with me I'd hope I would have if given the same circumstances.

And as a teacher, do you realise 'opine or lecture' cannot be used in the same sentence structure? Their like, 'opposites'. Cruising Forum is intended for 'opining' to use your word. It's what a forum is for.

I think everyone accepts your view (though holding the right to disagree) and I don't think anyone was criticising you for it. Certainly, others including myself disagree and it is quite legitimate for us to 'opine' our point of view on what you posted. But don't go getting upset then because others have a different view. If that's your intent, then I don't know why you decided to post in the first place.
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Old 24-08-2014, 16:07   #80
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

I agree that sometimes the "record" is more about dad or mom than the kid. In the U.S., you can (or could - the last time I heard anything about it) solo at 14. But, you'd never set a record for rtw at that age because solo training allows for only a small number of miles of flight from the airport (maybe twenty five?) So the other poster's comment about records being BS (at least in the U.S) is probably true.

It's so much different falling asleep at 5,000 ft than at sea level!
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Old 24-08-2014, 16:16   #81
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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I am only threatened by false memory. Remember I am talking about a "record" of being the youngest... which is a dangerous undertaking as it leads to younger and younger people doing it till the children die. Read the first post in this thread. Its this trying to attain some record that sucks till it kills people.
I get your concern Mark. But I think with Sailing their is a limit to the physical capabilities of young people. And possibly at 16 it's probably reached that limit for any world attempts. Though I met a 12 year old the other week that was built like Van Diesel.

And I also believe there is a certain amount of 'parent' dreams going on too as Sailor-Hutch just posted. With Laura Dekker and Abby Sunderland, I don't think either of them had the capabilities of doing what they did without the heavy financial support of their parents. Laura seemed to have an unlimited bank account for boat, groceries and everything else that kept her two year voyage going. Jessica Watson on the other hand set out to fund her own attempt and started seeking sponsors even before her parents were fully on board. I think I would have been in the Watson camp as a parent. I would have encouraged their dream and supported it in principal, but making it happen would have to be part of what the child learnt to do.

As for the danger, is not Max Verstappen (at 16) and Malavath Poorna (13) far more riskier adventurers and yet, there doesn't seem to be the outrage of either of them. Personally, I don't think sailing is anywhere near as dangerous as what either of these young people do.
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Old 24-08-2014, 16:22   #82
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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I agree that sometimes the "record" is more about dad or mom than the kid. In the U.S., you can (or could - the last time I heard anything about it) solo at 14. But, you'd never set a record for rtw at that age because solo training allows for only a small number of miles of flight from the airport (maybe twenty five?) So the other poster's comment about records being BS (at least in the U.S) is probably true.

It's so much different falling asleep at 5,000 ft than at sea level!
I thought their was an 'international' minimum solo age of 16 years for a powered plane?

Certainly in Australia it's 16 to go solo. You can start learning at any age though.
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Old 24-08-2014, 17:05   #83
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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I thought their was an 'international' minimum solo age of 16 years for a powered plane?

Certainly in Australia it's 16 to go solo. You can start learning at any age though.
I think that's changed over the (over forty) years that have passed since I looked at it. Now it's sixteen for powered planes, as you said. Now they require a medical exam, and I think that's changed too. I don't think we needed one of those back in the day...
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Old 24-08-2014, 17:15   #84
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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As for the danger, is not Max Verstappen (at 16) and Malavath Poorna (13) far more riskier adventurers and yet, there doesn't seem to be the outrage of either of them. Personally, I don't think sailing is anywhere near as dangerous as what either of these young people do.
It will be interesting to see how Max does...

What is becoming alarming is how F1 drivers who are not "winners" are basically done in the their mid-twenties.

In the back of the pack it's about who brings in the cash.
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Old 24-08-2014, 17:27   #85
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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With Laura Dekker and Abby Sunderland, I don't think either of them had the capabilities of doing what they did without the heavy financial support of their parents. Laura seemed to have an unlimited bank account for boat, groceries and everything else that kept her two year voyage going.
Your wrong about Laura. Her dad is a liveaboard boat bum, her mom a street performer/clown. The first boat she bought (she built her 1st "boat" at 6, good enough to sail across the river) from a friend of her dad by sweeping out stores every day, delivering newspapers, and street performing from 8 to 11.

She gets really annoyed when people assume she didn't buy her boats with her own work and money.
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Old 24-08-2014, 17:43   #86
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challange Dies...

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G'Day Patrick,

Well, I dunno... the definition that you are (I think) referring to was established by some arbitrary group who have said that they are the authority. I suspect that they were folks from old Blighty who, due to their unfortunate location on the globe must sail a hell of a long way south before rounding the Capes and getting on with their aim of circumnavigating. It gets up their nose that others live in more convenient places (and with better wx, too), so they threw in some arbitrary dodges in the route to keep out the riff-raff. Since those same folks don't now recognize age as part of recognizing records, it is of little importance what route she sailed, even to the record books.

Jessica set out from the East coast of Oz, she kept sailing until she got back to the East coast of Oz, she crossed the equator... good enough for me. Honestly, I don't care at all for the frenzy of attention that stunt sailors court, no matter what their age, gender, race, physical disabilities, planetary origin or choice of music might be. If they accomplish a noteworthy voyage, good on 'em, if they fail, I hope that they enjoyed the trip up to that point. But I'm not likely to buy the brand of cereal that is on their mainsail logo, or whatever.

Cheers and enjoy the big high that looms over Tassie just now!

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Hey Jim,

Like I say, I'm not having a go at Ms. Watson (she seems like a good sort). And perhaps, as her publicist, or manager, or whoever it was said, she never intended to do an "official" around the world sail. I think records for sailing around the world are kinda pointless anyway (particularly in terms of the age of the sailor), but given that there seems to be an "accepted" definition that includes 21,600 in there somewhere, it does seem slightly odd that she sailed the odd couple of hundred or so less than that. I mean, I kinda don't get why one wouldn't do the official thing? Maybe the official one isn't particularly well thought of (although Jessie Martin, for example, did sail the 21600).

Not to say what she did wasn't laudable / remarkable and who am I, from the comfort of my armchair to criticise? (not that it was meant as a criticism).
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Old 25-08-2014, 02:48   #87
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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Your wrong about Laura. Her dad is a liveaboard boat bum, her mom a street performer/clown. The first boat she bought (she built her 1st "boat" at 6, good enough to sail across the river) from a friend of her dad by sweeping out stores every day, delivering newspapers, and street performing from 8 to 11.

She gets really annoyed when people assume she didn't buy her boats with her own work and money.
Yes, I accept your point when she was 'younger'. But did she buy little guppy? Her circumnavigation was almost two years, that's costly. The film doesn't answer her finances of course. And her mom had nothing to do with supporting her sailing according to the film.
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Old 25-08-2014, 03:18   #88
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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Yes, I accept your point when she was 'younger'. But did she buy little guppy? Her circumnavigation was almost two years, that's costly. The film doesn't answer her finances of course. And her mom had nothing to do with supporting her sailing according to the film.
Dekker's effort was funded through family, friends, random sponsorships, and assorted patrons along the way. Even then, it was a bit of a shoestring affair.

In case no one has seen Guppy, it's not exactly a luxury yacht filled with the latest hardware and fittings.
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Old 25-08-2014, 03:33   #89
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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Dekker's effort was funded through family, friends, random sponsorships, and assorted patrons along the way. Even then, it was a bit of a shoestring affair.

In case no one has seen Guppy, it's not exactly a luxury yacht filled with the latest hardware and fittings.
I haven't seen Guppy other than in the film. And your right, it didn't look exorbitant, not like Abby Sunderland's hi tech vessel. Of course Jessica Watson's Pink Lady was very well financed, but that was all through sponsorships.
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Old 25-08-2014, 04:12   #90
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Re: Another "Youngest" Record Challenge Dies...

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My issue with the Dekker, Watson, & Sunderland trips is not whether they were capable or not, it's whether they were aware of the risks- I mean really aware. Several scientific studies have shown that even into our 20's, teenagers are terrible at judging risk. I'd be surprised if even 5% of teenagers are really aware of their own mortality.

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Hmm... funny that we (society) seems to be OK with them driving, flying, going to war and so on but not sailing, in the main, well away from dangers.
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