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Old 04-12-2012, 11:24   #76
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
So it wasn't that bad then? Do you think you can live onboard like that through the winter?
It was pretty bad...keep in mind that I'm used to being in small spaces with less comforts than this, with more noise and sometimes less protection from the weather. Riding freight was good preparation for this. For other people, the idea of spending 4 days in a small space that is pretty moist while being tossed around like a cork and having to peek out the hatch every 10 minutes to reassure yourself you're not dragging might be a bit too much.

As far as anchor type goes, I get a lot of conflicting advice there. Half the people on here and around say Danforth, the other say plow. What comes up with my anchors is mud, so I'm assuming that I'm anchored in mud, not silt. The people who've been anchored out here for decades or more tend to advise I use a plow, so like I said, I'll try one out next. At worst, I wind up with an extra anchor that I might need to anchor somewhere else anyway, so I fail to see the problem.
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Old 04-12-2012, 18:13   #77
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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also glad to hear that you bought a big anchor and big chain. probably saved your butt.
I suspect that what saved his boat[sic] was that his butt was aboard it the whole time! If I read his comments correctly, he was actively monitoring and adjusting throughout.

I was thinking that this "sentinel" tool might be very valuable. If he gets into a situation where he has no choice but to start an engine and motor out of a bad situation, a sentinel or kellet just might save his prop (if I correct understand the function of those gadgets)!

What I'M worried about is that his beautiful new liveaboard will soon look like a floating scrapyard with all the anchoring gear he is collecting!
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Old 04-12-2012, 19:21   #78
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Hello, Dameon,

Sailorchick suggested a Bruce type claw anchor. For Richardson Bay, I suspect Bash is right, and it truly isn't the best holding. Years ago, with a 36 footer, we tried to anchor there with a plow, and as Bash suggested, it plowed a lovely furrow, 3 times, about 100 ft. long! Eventually modified the technique to help it dig in: going astern VERY slowly, before setting it hard. Then we got a Bruce. It set much more quickly, and will re-set. Its downside is that it can pick up large rocks in its "hand", and then slides along the bottom merrily. Usual technique to solve that problem is to get the anchor close enough to the bow to tie it off to another cleat, as well, then use the boat hook to dislodge the rock, or lump of coral, whatever you picked up. Danforths make lovely lunch hooks, or stern anchors for bow-and-stern anchoring, or kedges--we still have the one Jim got for his Yankee 30, a 20 lb. high tensile one. Their downside is that they are extremely subject to picking up stuff (shells, trash) that jams them, then it can't re-set; also, in a strong tidal stream, I have seen it "swim", the power of the current being enough for it to float on its flukes and not sink.

The people who are recommending a Manson Supreme are wanting to save you the failure modes of the other types of anchors. It takes a lot of wondrous riffs to pay for one of those! I'm wondering if you've considered doing your music in Sacramento, where river flow will be "ebb" tide. There is musical interest up there...but not too many sailing destinations. The bay is the better place to teach yourself about sailing.

A final comment: remedying the leaks will be important for the integrity of the boat (long term leaks lead to lots of troubles), but also make life aboard more comfortable. I lived on wet boats and dry boats, and dry is better.

Good luck,

Ann Cate, s/v Insatiable II, lying Pittwater, NSW
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Old 05-12-2012, 14:39   #79
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Sacramento is okay, but I've had bad experiences with police there in the past while performing. Mostly, I prefer to avoid it; also, like you said, the bay is a better area to learn. I have been working on the leaks, too, when it's dry enough. Luckily, there mostly aren't many. Still, the drier I can keep everything, the happier me and my boat will be!

I was actually thinking of a Bruce...I think they'd give good holding power in this area. The 30 lb Danforth I've got, once it's set, is pretty durn good though. It was a huge pain to pull up last time I did it; it was set deep in the mud. What I can imagine easily happening though is that when they do pull up, they hold a lot of mud in the flukes. I can definitely see that jamming it and preventing it from resetting.

And ew, no floating scrapyard look for me. I have places to stow my anchors, I really don't mind having one in the V berth with me. Plus, I want my deck clear so that in case of emergency, I'm not stumbling over stuff and dealing with lines tangling up on crap. There's enough floating scrapyards in Richardson Bay as it is!
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Old 06-12-2012, 03:39   #80
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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As far as anchor type goes, I get a lot of conflicting advice there.
Lol! yeah lots of conflicting advice (and opinions!) on what is "best" when it comes to anchors .

IMO having options is good - therefore in your shoes I would go for a different design - the new style versions Manson / Rocna do cost a lot $$$ and not so available s/h, whereas the older designs CQR (Plough) / Bruce etc are cheaper and are universally used, so are evidently not that bad........if you do buy something that does not turn out to be not so good it could simply be the bottom in your area - so either keep the anchor for further travels or send back to e-bay etc and get something else.

In regard to the bottom, I have no knowledge of your locale - but not unusual for the seabed to vary accross a single location, even if simply from some areas being more weed covered or rock strewn. But some places can simply be more muddy or less good for anchoring than others.

Really no subsitute for getting own hands on knowledge of what works for you / your boat.......but you are already well into that .

Oh, and I forget what electronic technology you have onboard - but some chartplotters / GPS come with an anchor alarm to warn when drifting / dragging - not a total replacement for sticking head out of the hatch , but a useful add on.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:51   #81
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Originally Posted by Dameon View Post
As far as anchor type goes, I get a lot of conflicting advice there. Half the people on here and around say Danforth, the other say plow. What comes up with my anchors is mud, so I'm assuming that I'm anchored in mud, not silt. The people who've been anchored out here for decades or more tend to advise I use a plow, so like I said, I'll try one out next. At worst, I wind up with an extra anchor that I might need to anchor somewhere else anyway, so I fail to see the problem.
Anchoring is more like a religion than a science. EVeryone has an opinion, very few truly agree, and even those that agree frequently end up discussing it.

As someone here on CF noted, "Those people that think they know everything really piss off those of us that do"

anyway, the best discussion regarding anchoring that I've found is by Peter Smith, inventor of the Rocna. Since he invented the Rocna he does have some bias, but his observations and theory are generally correct. You can read them here:

Anchors and Anchoring

It's a lot of reading, but when you are done you will have a lot more knowledge than when you started.

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Old 06-12-2012, 09:32   #82
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Dameon,

How about a really crazy idea.

Talk to some places in the area. You may not be able to afford to live aboard, but see if they might let you do some side jobs to 'pay' the price of your slip?

Just a thought.

You have had several folks say you are running a high degree of probability you will lose your boat in one of these storms this winter if you don't.

Surely, there might be someone at one of the Marinas willing to exchange some work for 'rent?'

Wayne
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Old 06-12-2012, 13:30   #83
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

When operating on a small budget and planning to anchor in a single location for the most part... You might consider buying a BIG but now unpopular anchor... say a plow type of 50+ lbs for your boat. It may not be the latest and greatest design, but by going well oversize you can be pretty sure of adequate holding power. Then when you go for a daysail, simply buoy the chain and when you return, pick it up like a mooring (which it has become).

There seem to be lots of older anchors for sale cheap these days!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 06-12-2012, 18:19   #84
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
When operating on a small budget and planning to anchor in a single location for the most part... You might consider buying a BIG but now unpopular anchor... say a plow type of 50+ lbs for your boat. It may not be the latest and greatest design, but by going well oversize you can be pretty sure of adequate holding power. Then when you go for a daysail, simply buoy the chain and when you return, pick it up like a mooring (which it has become).

There seem to be lots of older anchors for sale cheap these days!

Cheers,

Jim

That's what I've been thinking reading this thread. I recently got a 110# Danforth for $200 on CL. If you look you can find anchors cheap, as long as you live in the right sort of area.
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Old 08-12-2012, 22:10   #85
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Surely, there might be someone at one of the Marinas willing to exchange some work for 'rent?'
Anyone who has owned rental properties knows that this is a bad practice. Even if the person is a professional, it is always better to insist on receiving money for the rent, then paying money for the repairs.

And I think there will be a very large number of liveaboards looking for ways to live in a Marina without having to pay the fees. I don't think this would be a novel offer.
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Old 08-12-2012, 23:36   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dameon View Post
As far as anchor type goes, I get a lot of conflicting advice there. Half the people on here and around say Danforth, the other say plow. What comes up with my anchors is mud, so I'm assuming that I'm anchored in mud, not silt. The people who've been anchored out here for decades or more tend to advise I use a plow, so like I said, I'll try one out next. At worst, I wind up with an extra anchor that I might need to anchor somewhere else anyway, so I fail to see the problem.
The people who have been anchored out in Richardson Bay "for decades" haven't been using plows. They've been on moorings. Had they been on anchors of any sort, they'd have ended up over on the rocks in Turburon just like a dozen boats ended up last weekend.

As far as the silt is concerned, see if you can find Richardson Bay on Google Earth. Now look upstream. What you'll see is that an enormous amount of watershed empties into your new home, coming down both the Sacramento and San Joachin rivers via the Sacramento Delta. And guess what's washing down those rivers? Silt. And the problems of siltation get worse every year as a result of agricultural runoff. Really. Google Earth wouldn't lie.

You write, "At worst, I wind up with an extra anchor...." That's not the worst case scenario at all. Think about it. What happened to 12 boats last weekend? Yep. And you're going to turn to those guys for anchoring advice?

You dragged last weekend during your first storm. Now is not the time to get cocky about anchoring. It's going to be a long winter.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:40   #87
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Well, since others have posted about concrete'

And just about everyone has more experience than I, my disclaimer, since we are doing this on the cheap.....get a 5 gal bucket. get 2 or 3 pieces of rebar and drive them through the buck and wrap a chain around the rebar and fill with concrete. Get an old car rim, bend another piece of rebar in a u and put the ends through the bolt holes on one side of the rim and hammer the ends over so the u won't come out. Feed the chain from the bucket under and through the u and pull it tight so the bucket is on top of and facing the u. The rim will dig in to the mud bottom. You can also let the bucket follow a couple feet behind the rim in weeded or harder areas. This has kept a 27', 5500 lb cuddy from moving in a main channel for the summer. Put a line on the chain and float a clorox bottle to find your line. Another guy with a smaller boat just used a rim with rebar in 2 u pieces through the bolt holes. Us the large rebar, the small stuff will just bend. We are in the Ozarks!

Might want to do this in the dark so you're not seen, someone may think you're tossing junk in the water, without a purpose. It's not pretty but it works!
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Old 09-12-2012, 15:16   #88
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Well, since others have posted about concrete'

And just about everyone has more experience than I, my disclaimer, since we are doing this on the cheap.....get a 5 gal bucket. get 2 or 3 pieces of rebar and drive them through the buck and wrap a chain around the rebar and fill with concrete. Get an old car rim, bend another piece of rebar in a u and put the ends through the bolt holes on one side of the rim and hammer the ends over so the u won't come out. Feed the chain from the bucket under and through the u and pull it tight so the bucket is on top of and facing the u. The rim will dig in to the mud bottom. You can also let the bucket follow a couple feet behind the rim in weeded or harder areas. This has kept a 27', 5500 lb cuddy from moving in a main channel for the summer. Put a line on the chain and float a clorox bottle to find your line. Another guy with a smaller boat just used a rim with rebar in 2 u pieces through the bolt holes. Us the large rebar, the small stuff will just bend. We are in the Ozarks!

Might want to do this in the dark so you're not seen, someone may think you're tossing junk in the water, without a purpose. It's not pretty but it works!
Good Grief... this is about the worst advice that has yet been published on this forum!!

Mr Wavewacker does not have a clue about anchoring in open waters, nor about silt bottoms, nor about mooring design.

Avoid.

Cheers,

Jim

PS For Bash, I still imagine that a big enough plow will indeed work in Richardson Bay. How big is big enough?? Bloody good question, that!
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Old 09-12-2012, 16:06   #89
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Good Grief... this is about the worst advice that has yet been published on this forum!!

Mr Wavewacker does not have a clue about anchoring in open waters, nor about silt bottoms, nor about mooring design.

Avoid.

Cheers,

Jim

PS For Bash, I still imagine that a big enough plow will indeed work in Richardson Bay. How big is big enough?? Bloody good question, that!
Did ya see my disclaimer?

My channel is small, only about five miles long and almost a mile across with rock cliff ledges for the 3, 4, 5 foot chop to hit, the shelf drops off 20' out only a few hundred feet, so it's nothing like the Atlantic I know or the bays. I'm certainly no anchor engineer, I only commented as another suggested a concrete weight.

I thought about suggesting the OP keep the car attached to the wheel as well for his 26'er, but that's probably overkill.

BTW, it's almost like a mushroom anchor, just bigger and heaiver with some barbs that only help keep it from rolling over. The silt mixture is probably different due to soil differences from one area to another as well, but this works in clay/rock and sands built up around midwestern lake/rivers, like the lower big muddy.
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Old 09-12-2012, 19:49   #90
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

I live aboard my 27 footer that I bought for $2000. Took it out sailing a few days after I bought it, too. Started out with the engine, an Atomic 4, turning over but not running. Little by little it gets fixed up and modified into a better liveaboard. Here's my advice, which is worth about what you paid for it.

1. pursue and prosecute leaks and take no prisoners. This may mean tearing out any headliner you have in the cabin. A dry boat is a happy boat.

2. Either get your inboard running, replace it, or remove it so you have more room, in that order of preference. If it is raw water cooled and is more than 20 years old, lean toward the replacing option. Change the cooling water impellor even if it looks good, and install a strainer downstream from the water pump. One broken fin from the impellor can clog up a key passage and cause a hot running engine.

3. Sail the boat! It gives you purpose and focus.

4. Be a good neighbor. If others know you are always willing to pitch in and help and eager to learn, they are more likely to help you and teach you stuff. Also good neighbors find that their neighbors keep a good eye on their boats.

5. Keep an eye out for wrecks, abandoned boats, salvaged boats, etc, especially in your size range. Good source for new-to-you stuff like serviceable winches, engine, sails, anchor, etc.

6. You don't need a diver or a haulout to clean your bottom. Careen your boat and scrape it at low tide, one side at a time. Don't neglect prop and shaft, even though your engine is (for now) not running. Blisters, if minor, are usually not something that's gotta be fixed right now. Bottom paint is nice but your own labor to just scrape the bottom more often, is free.

When re-wiring, work from the load back toward the source. Use good quality wire and don't try to go light guage. Even for a small light, try to go at least 12ga. Bigger wire = lower line losses adn this si especially important in a 12v system. Longer wires = more line losses. More amps and more hours = more. Marine wire isn't cheap but before scrimping on size and quality, I would rather cut out unneccessary circuits altogether. Consider a seperate auxillary panel for your mast mounted lights, or relocating the main board to somewhere near the mast.

Check your chain plates. Make sure they are solid and solidly anchored. If your shrouds and stays are more than 10 years old, replace them before you go sailing out of celphone range. Get to the top of your mast and check sheaves, shackles, etc. Make sure all halyards run freely. Try to reeve a spare halyard or two in case one carries away. You need some experienced guidance the first time you visit the top of your mast. If you fall from 40 feet up, it could damage your deck. Or something.

Buy a 600' spool of 7/16" Polyester double braid. For your boat I would go cheap, and buying a sheet or halyard at a time at West Marine will cost you a lot more than just buying a spool of the size that you will use more often than not. If in doubt about a line, replace it.

Have at least two ways to pump out your boat, one of which does not require electricity. Also you should have at least one pump on automatic.

As quickly as possible, fix any compliance issues. Make sure you have all required placards, seals or padlocks, numbers, extinguishers, signaling equipment, etc. cause the last thing you need is guff from the coast guard.

Get a copy of the Rules Of The Road, and learn everything in it by heart. If someone asks you what is the required luminous range for your white mast light and how many points abaft the beam it should be visible, you shouldn't have to scratch your head or look it up. If you don't know whether or not a boat on the starboard tack has the righ of way over a boat on the port tack, or just what it means to be on the starboard or the port tack, you need to learn. What sound signal should you sound, and how often, when you are at anchor? Sailing? Motoring? You need to know, not guess. If you are the stand-on vessel, when may you change course? When MUST you do so? You need to know. What is "Safe Speed"? When must you keep a proper lookout, and what does it mean to keep a proper lookout? This is important stuff, seriously important stuff.
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