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Old 25-11-2012, 07:29   #61
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Cool Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
I read somewhere about a scheme for getting more out of anchor/chain combination by attaching a bucket of scrap or concrete to your chain road a few feet below the surface. This forces the chain to lie at a lower angle, and therefore improve the drag performance on your anchor.
Years and years ago (in the late 80's) my 28' wooden double ender (4 tons) was tided up bow to to a dock at an island called Bassholmen in Sweden. My anchor was a cheap ($20!) Danforth copy and I used what you describe here to give it extra holding power - a 5 lb block of lead on a block running on the anchor rode about 25' down the rode. During the night there was a pretty good storm and in the end I had about 10 other boats pushing on me, they were all dragging but my cheap copy and extra weight held them all.

On the other hand - I had set that anchor further out than most so I had a good scope - I estimate more than 5 - 1 - most tied up had maybe 2 or 3 to 1.

I used that lead weight a lot..=*^)
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Old 25-11-2012, 20:11   #62
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

rsrguy3 - interesting. back in the day (70's and 80's) coconut grove in south florida was a real hangout for 'hippies' and other 'undesireables' living on anything that floated. although the anchorage was clearly in view of some rather wealthy palaces the liveaboard community tended to be less well off.

mooring was more common than anchoring as most of the floating junk was there to stay. and building your own concrete mooring was fairly common. i think the bottom is still littered with their remains.

all that was necessary was a large plastic garbage can - 30 gallons comes to mind - and sacks of concrete. as the concrete and water was poured, chain was placed inside so that it would be encased in the mix. the end of the chain was held outside to become the attachment point for the mooring. the chief problem with concrete is that, while it may seem heavy on land, in water it loses about 40% of its weight due to bouyancy.
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Old 26-11-2012, 00:52   #63
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Never heard one referred to as a "kettle" before. It's a kellet.



Kellets or Anchor Angels / Sentinels: Uses and Applications
Minaret - Absolutely correct. My two fingers sometimes have a mind of their own. Should have read Kellet.

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Old 30-11-2012, 13:39   #64
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Onestep,
I had no idea it lost that much. As far as what I was thinking goes, well lets just say you could keep adding buckets until you had enough to do the job. The garbage can idea is kinda neat except all that weight on the deck of a boat scares me. -Guy
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Old 30-11-2012, 14:35   #65
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Over the course of the past twenty four hours, there have been gale warnings inside San Francisco Bay. Plenty of wind, anywhere from 25 to 40 knots.

Hope you're safe.

Don't skimp on real anchoring systems. Find a 15# mushroom anchor at the consignment store for cheap as a kellet (or sentinel). Want to read more about these devices? Do a search, been discussed lots of times.

***********************
***********************

Here's one not here but on another forum that I wrote:

Anchoring lesson learned I had another experience that I thought others might benefit from.

A couple of weekends ago, we anchored off of China Camp in the North Bay of SF Bay. Anybody who's been in this area will know that the current really rips through here. We had motored to the beach at the time that the tide changed, so we weren't on the boat when it swung. Somehow it got caught up against the rode, so that when we got back on the boat the rode was running from the bow down the (port) side of the boat to the stern.

I tried to pull it free but the current was too strong. I tried to pull the stern of the boat around with my dinghy but couldn't do that as I only have a 2hp outboard. I was afraid to motor around as I didn't know how close the line passed to the prop. I tried sailing off, but that didn't work either.

I figured that we could just leave it as is and wait until the tide shifted again. So I stretched out in the hammock I'd stretched out from the mast to the forestay. Nice and relaxing, bouncing on the waves.

After a half hour, though, I suddenly noticed that the movement of the hammock had suddenly changed. On sitting up I saw that we were dragging anchor. I tried releasing the anchor rode, but I couldn't.

On we drifted, down towards the other boats. It was a really helpless feeling as we passed one boat after another. Then a guy in a dinghy with a larger outboard came up and offered help. We tied a line from our stern to his dinghy and he was able to pull our stern around to the point where we could drift free of the line and I started up our motor, pulled our anchor and re set it.

My two biggest mistakes: (1) I should have thought of running my spare anchor out and trying to kedge us around and even if I hadn't been able to, at least I'd have had a second anchor; (2) I should have tied a buouy to my line and had a knife ready to cut the rode in case we started dragging anchor.

Anyway, lessons learned. Maybe this experience will help somebody else in a similar fix.
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1998 C36 07-21-2011, 07:54 PM stu

****************

John, glad you're safe. Good lesson learned. I always use a sentinel when I anchor up there. The sentinel is NOT used to keep the anchor down, but rather to keep the rode down when the boat swings. Unless it's blowing like stink when the wind shifts, it works. I've had keel wraps up there myself, before I started using the sentinel, although I've always had lots of rode out since there's so much room. I guess I was fortunate enough not to have dragged, but the motion really s*cks. Our sentinel is an 8# mushroom anchor on its own separate rode, connected with a carabiner. Most folks recommend the heftier 15# model, but ours has worked for the past 13 years.

[added] The trick with the sentinel is that when the current reverses there is usually (I say usually) little pull on the rode, so the sentinel drops the rode below the keel as the boat swings (unless it's blowing like stink when the current reverses).
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Last edited by stu jackson c34 : 07-22-2011 at 02:54 PM.


07-21-2011, 11:27 PM

I use the identical setup that Stu has. A nearby anchorage, Fairlee Creek, has a strong incoming/outgoing tide through the 30 foot wide entrance and it creates strong eddy currents. The sentinel prevents keel wraps quite well, have never had one since I started using it.
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07-22-2011, 03:07 PM
John



Another lesson
Okay, so now I've learned another lesson. I take it the sentinel attached through a carabiner can slide up and down the rode?
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07-22-2011, 03:35 PM
stu


Yes. Anchor normally. Attach carabiner to the shackle at the top of the sentinel and another rode to the sentinel shackle, keeping the carbiner free to move. Clip the carabiner to the main anchor rode. Drop the sentinel with its own separate rode and slide it down the anchor rode, about the depth of the water, not much more (figure high water, it'll either sit in the mud at low water - good with a mushroom sentinel anyway, or keep the rode down at higher water). Tie off the sentinel rode to one of your bow cleats. I do it off the port side, don't use the second anchor roller for the sentinel. I keep the sentinel, it's shackle, the carabiner and its own rode in the port locker. The rode is only about twenty to twenty five feet long, 3/8" 3 strand. Our anchor rode is 1/2". The carabiner is there to have a big enough opening to slide down the anchor rode, a shackle itself is too small. Makes it much easier to set and retrieve also.
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Last edited by stu jackson c34 : 08-15-2011 at 02:59 PM.


07-25-2011, 08:36 AM
John

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying this:

You leave out about the amount of rode on the sentinel as the water depth at high tide. You clip the caribiner to the end of the anchor and around the rode of the main anchor line. In other words, the end of the sentinel is right along the end of the main anchor line and allowed to, in effect, slide up and down that rode by virtue of the fact that the carebiner is around the anchor line.)

As I'm visualizing it, this will in effect keep the anchor rode going more vertically straight down to the bottom and then horizontal along the bottom.
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07-25-2011, 06:04 PM

Exactly, you got it. When there's no wind, what you said will happen. When the wind picks up, the sentinel will rise, but (hopefully, and based on my experiences at China Camp) when the currents reverse, the sentinel will drop down again and keep your rode from fouling your keel.
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Does the sentinel control anchor swing?
Stu: Just read somewhere, while investigating anchor riding sails, that also is a technique to control swing at anchor. Seems like it would help the main anchor stay put and help with bow rise and fall as well?
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01-14-2012, 05:18 PM

Harold, it should work a bit when there's no wind, but when it pipes up? No, it won't help since the rode is pretty much all stretched out by then.

Like everything else with close-quarter anchoring, there simply is no magic bullet.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:51   #66
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Whew, hell of a storm. Four days of being inside a washing machine, as described. 50+ knots of wind sometimes, but I made it through. Just before the storm hit I got a 30 lb Danforth and 80 feet of 3/8 chain, and got some help setting my 15 lb Danforth as a secondary anchor. I'm fine, though...dragged at the very end of the storm, but managed to get my anchors reset without dragging into anybody.
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Old 03-12-2012, 13:00   #67
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Whew, hell of a storm. Four days of being inside a washing machine, as described. 50+ knots of wind sometimes, but I made it through. Just before the storm hit I got a 30 lb Danforth and 80 feet of 3/8 chain, and got some help setting my 15 lb Danforth as a secondary anchor. I'm fine, though...dragged at the very end of the storm, but managed to get my anchors reset without dragging into anybody.
Get some rest! Looking forward to learning from your experience when you get a break, and what (if anything) you're thinking about doing differently in the coming months.
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Old 03-12-2012, 13:13   #68
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

The main thing my experience taught me is don't panic. If things start going wrong, it helps to take a second to step back and make yourself think.

What I'm thinking about doing differently is getting a bigger anchor and bigger chain!
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Old 03-12-2012, 13:31   #69
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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The main thing my experience taught me is don't panic. If things start going wrong, it helps to take a second to step back and make yourself think.

What I'm thinking about doing differently is getting a bigger anchor and bigger chain!
I would consider getting a different type of anchor as well. As mentioned above, Danforth's don't reset well with large wind shifts. Don't forget a snubber as well.
Glad both you and the boat are safe after the blow
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Old 03-12-2012, 13:33   #70
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

Going to get a plow-type anchor next, if possible, and try it out in the next blow for comparison. The Danforth was less of a choice and more of a "holy **** I need an anchor before this hits" solution.
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Old 03-12-2012, 13:38   #71
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Going to get a plow-type anchor next, if possible, and try it out in the next blow for comparison. The Danforth was less of a choice and more of a "holy **** I need an anchor before this hits" solution.
Ploughs are an old design (eg CQR was patented in the 30's). Altough ploughs hold very well in mud, there are lots more efficient new designs with significantly better holding in some terrains and conditions.
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Old 03-12-2012, 14:38   #72
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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The main thing my experience taught me is don't panic. If things start going wrong, it helps to take a second to step back and make yourself think.

What I'm thinking about doing differently is getting a bigger anchor and bigger chain!
So it wasn't that bad then? Do you think you can live onboard like that through the winter?
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Old 03-12-2012, 14:58   #73
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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Going to get a plow-type anchor next, if possible, and try it out in the next blow for comparison. The Danforth was less of a choice and more of a "holy **** I need an anchor before this hits" solution.
You're anchoring in silt, and plow-type anchors tend to plow in silt.

You can bank on getting gales like we had Sunday morning at least once a month through the winter.

I understand that at least a dozen boats from your neighborhood ended up against the rocks in Tiburon. (Ask me how I knew that would happen.)

Here are some pics of last weekend's carnage: Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
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Old 03-12-2012, 15:13   #74
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

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.....
Here are some pics of last weekend's carnage: Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
OUCH!
Did you note the comment under the second photo:
"Boaters who try to save money by anchoring their boats out rather than paying for a slip in a marina sometimes end up with no boat at all."

Dameon, it would be a good idea to take Bash's advice regarding anchor type!
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Old 03-12-2012, 19:53   #75
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Re: You'll Think I'm Crazy

dameon -

glad to hear you made it through the storm. sounds like you're learning to be a liveaboard sailor a bit sooner than you had hoped. also glad to hear that you bought a big anchor and big chain. probably saved your butt.

as some other posters have said, the newer style (manson/rocna/spade) anchors are superior to previous styles in many ways, but, unfortunately, not cheap. even the smallest manson supreme that i could recommend, the 25lb galvanized, is over $250.00.

you might just buy another 30lb danforth, then learn to set them in what we east coasters call a 'bahamian' moor - one upstream, one downstream. this will help eliminate the problem danforths have with pulling out and not resetting when the current reverses.

best course is probably to talk to other long term liveaboards and find out what they're using. good luck!
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