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Old 18-01-2010, 22:08   #16
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When I bought my boat I explained to the broker I would need a different moorage because I was planning to live aboard and it wasn't permitted here. He explained that you were allowed to stay aboard all you wanted. I thought it meant I had to pretend to not be living aboard but my neighbors set me straight (none of them live aboard). At this marina the boats must be surveyed and insured - they are boats. Not many of us live aboard but my neighbors love the fact I'm here. I have a couple of their numbers and they know I'm looking out for their interests. In the community it is accepted that their are many live aboards around the area and no one has a problem with it. I guess it is one of those things where people think it will work better for everyone if it is kept some what quiet.
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Old 27-01-2010, 07:02   #17
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To the well made posts about the nightmares surrounding the dock-slobs with their dogs peeing everywhere, cats roaming loose, lawn chairs, plywood dock boxes and rusting refrigerators taking over the docks, as my first post being a newbie here I’d like to add that I found this discussion very apropos with what I have been seeing lately regarding liveaboards around my coordinates; non-boater, crafty landlubber folk of all kind stumbling across “retired” boats in the throws of waterfront living to be had in high priced, desirable locations for real cheap. Unfortunately, such a “cheap” waterfront living usually takes place aboard platforms that are not fit to be considered navigable vessels.


We have lived aboard boats since 1982 and I am deathly scared that this close-to-nature, wonderful lifestyle of independence and self reliance is slowly becoming not only undesirable but progressively outlawed. What we used to refer to as “the shallow-water boys” taking up residence aboard derelicts in the shallows of the anchorages of Booth Key Harbor and Dinner Key started it, then it spread north to Vero, Georgia, NY and today we have it in Toronto of all places. Twenty years ago we had “cruisers” readying to head offshore living on boats here on Lake Ontario braving the winters - today we have folks living aboard boats because it is a cheap way to have waterfront “property” in Toronto! Well, quite frankly I can’t blame them for trying, and some are very good and responsible people, but any boat that is not insurable, or can not or is not seaworthy enough to operate under its own power (can not fulfill the simple premise of what maritime law considers “navigation”), should not be rented a slip. Marina owners need to wake up to this and not just disallow liveaboards as undesirables across the board!
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Old 27-01-2010, 07:50   #18
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here in frenchmans bay (Ontario) we have alot of liveaboards doing fine with there ice eaters working away in the winter, there must be 30 boats of all different shapes and sizes. from what I have told, some of the liveaboards are a pain in the butt, with there demands, but I would think that is normal.

there are city by-laws in place, like you cant hang luandry outside, this should apply to boaters that call your boat home. and of course your boat should be proven sea worthy, and the enviroment should be respected, which brings me up to a question my wife and I have for the people that live on there boats right now, when we wake up in the morning, the first thing we do before making a coffee is go to the bathroom, living on a boat at a marina, I have two options, get up and go to the head on the boat or put my winter jacket on and walk a fair distance to go to the marina bathroom........... over time my holding will become full and my boat would be locked in by ice, we need to know how this is handled.

I own a slip right next to this marina (it is a condo type arrangment), I own the slip and I pay property taxes and monthly for the water and hydro 12 months a year, I even have an address so that I can recieve mail, the issue that I dont understand is that we are allowed to live there from april to nov. but not throught the winter months. I must address this at the next meeting.

I would like to try this lifestyle in the winter
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Old 27-01-2010, 07:55   #19
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Originally Posted by gjberta View Post
............We have lived aboard boats since 1982 and I am deathly scared that this close-to-nature, wonderful lifestyle of independence and self reliance is slowly becoming not only undesirable but progressively outlawed................. Marina owners need to wake up to this and not just disallow liveaboards as undesirables across the board!
I certainly agree with your desire to keep the live aboard opportunities available for true boaters, but I don't think your history is accurate for the larger view. Living aboard as low income housing may be recent in Toronto, but floating shanties were common on the banks of the Mississippi, San Francisco Bay and the Florida Keys throughout the nineteenth century and for much of the twentieth century and far less presently. We've been living aboard since a time shortly before the US Clean Water Act of 1973 which was used as local governmental leverage to disallow much of this style of boating considered a blight. Marina owners are very much "Awake" to this problem. but it's very difficult to write a policy that discriminates between these classes of liveaboards. For most of the years that we have lived aboard, we've been at marinas that post a policy that they do not allow liveaboards. This allows them to screen their clients who actually do liveaboard. Presently, I belive that Georgia is the only US state that has a law against living aboard. Florida's law against "liveaboard" vessels at anchor only applies to vessel not "navigating". This law discriminates against the "platforms" and is very much alligned with your motives in your post. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew
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Old 27-01-2010, 09:24   #20
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I have two options, get up and go to the head on the boat or put my winter jacket on and walk a fair distance to go to the marina bathroom........... over time my holding will become full and my boat would be locked in by ice, we need to know how this is handled.
The marina usually provides some form of portable pump-out device; I heard that where you are they have a nice one on wheels, so you just wheel it up to your slip when you need to and then it gets dumped in the municipal sewers system....

You must know the "Margroy"??
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Old 27-01-2010, 09:41   #21
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I dont know Margroy...........yet, I just own the slip, I dont have a boat there, at the moment
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Old 27-01-2010, 09:44   #22
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It's interesting to note that megayachts are often berthed in marinas where liveaboards are excluded, despite the fact that these boats have crews that live aboard 24/7/365. The point is not so much the living aboard as it is keeping the marina from becoming a shanty town.

It would be interesting to keep track of how many non-boaters approach this forum in any given year with plans to pick up a boat for less than five figures if only we'd be kind enough to point out where one can live on such a boat. Folks, we can't encourage these schemes on one hand while condemning marina owners on the other hand for becoming increasingly hostile to liveaboard lifestyles. Perhaps our answer should be that there are four steps to finding a liveaboard slip: (1) get a job; (2) learn to sail; (3) develop the skills to maintain a boat in bristol condition; (4) purchase a boat that will add to the visual landscape of the marina rather than detract from it. After that, everything will fall into place, at least for those with insurance plans.
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Old 27-01-2010, 10:42   #23
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I certainly agree with your desire to keep the live aboard opportunities available for true boaters, but I don't think your history is accurate for the larger view. Living aboard as low income housing may be recent in Toronto, but floating shanties were common on the banks of the Mississippi, San Francisco Bay and the Florida Keys throughout the nineteenth century and for much of the twentieth century and far less presently.
Right you are CaptForce, indeed, but I don't think that way of trying to stay alive was ever actually considered synonymous with recreational boating.
What scares me now as a threat to my lifestyle, is when I see a marina doing the opposite; attracting liveaboards indiscriminately, just to fill slips.

Quote:
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It would be interesting to keep track of how many non-boaters approach this forum in any given year with plans to pick up a boat for less than five figures .....


In one instance, I see boats that were declared a constructive loss (many of them by my own company during insurance surveys) being auctioned off as "making a great dockside liveaboard" in order to clear up the marina's backlog of unpaid storage, with the bonus of getting the junk out of the boneyard (instead of paying for proper disposal) and filling an otherwise empty slip (disregarding insurability and seaworthiness, of course).
While this approach to operating a marina may be more of a rarity, I see it being done, and doing a lot of damage to the descriptive "liveaboard" before almost always ending up with the place being closed down, the property cleaned up and converted to a park or condo complex. Or, bought out by a new owner, cleaned up and with a big sign "Liveaboards keep out!".

I also feel sorry for the poor devils who are trapped into paying off storage owed on junk and forking over big bucks for dockage of a "boat" with no future and a very short life expectancy as a useful liveaboard.
Maybe I see too much of what is not supposed to be taking place in our industry. I also see some big fire or loss of life that will trigger much tighter controls on what big brother allows us to license and place afloat on our waters. The days of being able to lawfully operate a vessel without insurance is sure to come to an end, which will for the most part solve the problem of unfit junk afloat. Not that it is smart to go boating without insurance, but it is another free-to-do-so privilidge that will be stripped away....
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Old 27-01-2010, 13:12   #24
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"the issue that I dont understand is that we are allowed to live there from april to nov. but not throught the winter months."
Quite the norm in the NE US. According to marinas, their insurers will not allow liveaboards in the winter because of the greateer risk of someone slipping off an icy dock and drowning in the freezing water. Winter means someone has to clear snow and ice from the docks to maintain them safely ($$) and in 32-34F water, you've got about five minutes survival time before your diaphragm muscles freeze up, you stop breathing, and you drown.
I can see why insurers would take issue with that environment, or want a much higher payment than they ask for more temperate months. Which the marinas probably just don't want to pay.
Of course the more rational approach is to say "You can use it all winter if you sign this waiver waiving your life away..." but in this society, that won't prevent lawsuits from the heirs and family or guests, so yeah, I can sadly see closing the gates until spring. (Ever see any ladders IN the water, at your marina? Close enough to reach and climb before you went numb?)
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Old 27-01-2010, 14:34   #25
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Hey, I do like the ladder idea, weather in the summer or winter, that is good advice to all marinas .......
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Old 28-01-2010, 06:11   #26
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Winter means someone has to clear snow and ice from the docks to maintain them safely ($$) ...
All NE marinas that allow liveaboards have a surcharge to deal with the extra expense; the norm appears to be $350.00 for the first person residing aboard and $150.00 per additional POBs.

BTW, all of the liveaboard insurance policies I have seen also apply a $500.00 extra premium to allow the vessel to remain afloat and occupied during the off season (the "off season" being the months the policy requires the owner to warrant the vessel to be hauled, usually December through March).

The lack of proper safety and life saving devices are rampant in my region, boggles the mind but that is another subject to rant about…..
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Old 28-01-2010, 12:50   #27
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Anyone on the East Coast in a military base Marina per chance?
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Old 28-01-2010, 17:44   #28
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Our clubs annual meeting is on the 9th of february, and one of the items is a bylaw change where the wording for accepting liveaboards will be changed from "the board will accept up to 6 liveaboard applications..." to "the board may accept up to 6...."

We have about 4 boats that are liveaboard and 3 of them are no problem what so ever. The other one, has basicly started using the club as their personal kitchen, living room and office. The boat is only used for sleeping on. Club members coming to play darts have to wait while the person and guests clear up the dining area or otherwise get out of the way. The fridge is full with a weeks groceries and the club phone is starting to be used for that persons work from home job.

Anyway, that one person has queered up living aboard for any one else. I'm one of those who as been working toward being able to liveaboard and now it appears that that will be not happening. I'll be going to the AGM but I doubt theres much hope. Changing that one word means that they will no longer allow liveaboards. Its just a simple way of allowing the board to say no.

Needless to say, I'm very annoyed.


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Old 28-01-2010, 19:57   #29
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Never forget the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!

The older I get and the longer I live, the more I see the golden rule in action at every level.

When I left Fort Lauderdale to start my circumnavigation, there were liveaboard slips all up and down the coast. When we returned eleven years later, the megayachts and the big money had moved in, and the middle class liveaboards were clearly out. It was extremely difficult to find a liveaboard slip and nearly imposible to find a place to anchor. Businesses that depended on yachties for their survival, had pulled up stakes and moved to other locations. I was surprised when Sailrite abandoned their Fort Lauderdale operations. The liveaboard yachties were not there to purchase things from the Sailrite store, so they left town.

If you follow the flow of money in an area, it's easy to tell whether liveaboards will be regarded as a pariah or as good upstanding citizens of the community. When big money comes in, liveaboards suddenly become lepers, and big money drives them out.

When we were in Lauderdale, we read that the average megayacht is used by their owners three weeks a year. But big money pays their bills - they are an excellent source of revenue. Everyone bends over backwards to see that big money gets what they want. Nobody cares about middle class liveaboard yachties. They would prefer for them to quietly slip away into extinction.

He who has the gold makes the rules.

Fortunately, the world is a big place, and if you drop your docklines, you can go where big money never goes, and that's to some of the nicest sailing destinations in the world.
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Old 28-01-2010, 20:50   #30
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What about a real estate tax on liveaboards same as home owners have to pay? Maybe based on reverse value of boat with a big bump up for floating junk that may well cost state money if abandoned or sunk at mooring or dock.
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