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Old 26-01-2012, 12:58   #31
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
.....The owner hired a professional in an area requiring certain competence in performing a service, tossing the anchor out in this case and ensuring it was set sufficiently to protect not only his craft but from being a hazard to others. They clearly failed in their duty. So the owner of the hazard can seek to be indemnified for his loss and file suit against the company that performed the service. .........
Diving & Salvage was engaged under contract to set the anchor, agreed.
BUT just because the anchor was set does not mean that it will hold. OP stated that the anchor was X type which is known not to hold well in that bottom type. Therefore unless the contract was to anchor the boat against storms, with that being an essential term and condition of the contract there may well be no breach of contract in that regard. No breach of contract = no remedy available to ferro boat against Diving $ Salvage
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Old 26-01-2012, 14:20   #32
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

Personally, I dislike all this blaming and sueing others and expecting "liability" to be with someone else.

If you are anchored or underway in public waters/waterway/anchorage then YOU are responsible to dodge floating debris sent your way by nature, no matter how big or small. What if a 36 inch diameter tree fell over in a storm 10 miles away and drifted into your boat? You going to sue the land owner?

Take some responsibility for yourself. You choose to use or anchor your boat in a public open space then you choose to accept the risk, especially if you leave that boat unattended.

Come on, we all drag at some point. We have no control of nature or bottom conditions.

If the Ferro boat sailed or motored or maneuvered into the Wood boat, then that would be the Ferro's responsibility for sure. That is different.

They are probably both there for the same reasons, they both own difficult to insure vessels and probably can not even enter a marina. All of us boaters need to stick together and work together. Sueing and trying to place blame on each other and trying to take what the other guy has is just going to lead to no boating fun for anyone but the rich due to rules, regulations, insurance requirements, higher insurance costs, higher requirements to even get insurance, and so on.


Just my opinion.
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Old 26-01-2012, 14:34   #33
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I'm 3rd Party... aka Liability only... marina's demand it.. 97/yr
And it was a storm so if anchored someone should have been aboard... and thats what Insurers might well say..
if you love your boat more than any cash one may be able to claw back..
(funny old forum this.. anchoring threads have lotsa talk about Meercats owners and anchor watches but when something like this happens suddenly its just insurance liability with no watch needed)
But... as often chortled over here... I may well be wrong

This is a serious issue, so I checked with my insurance company. They said they do not want me on my boat at anchor in a storm if I can get off safely, and that if my boat stays put and another one breaks loose and hits my boat, they would expect the other insurance company to pay. They value human safety over the boat.

In addition, when questioned further, they said that hauling up anchor by oneself in a storm, with other boats around, would not be prudent use of the boat. They wouldn't recommend bringing another person aboard to perform a potentially dangerous action (pulling up anchor in a crowded anchorage in a storm), either, since they would be liable for any injuries to that person.

You do what your insurance company -- or you -- thinks is right, but I would not be out in a storm trying to move my boat under the circumstances described. If there were WARNING of a storm and there were time, I would move it to a more sheltered location, because I've seen what can happen in a storm, including a boat collision. In that case (the collision), the boat that broke free was liable for the damages to the boat that remained anchored.

My insurance company also said I was not required to maintain a watch on an anchored boat, but that if my boat broke loose and damaged some other boat, I would be liable. They did say that I must follow regulations such as maintaining an adequate anchor light. They did say that they would expect me to check the boat periodically to make sure it remained securely anchored, rode in good shape, etc., and that my rates would go up if I permanently left my protected marina and moved my boat to open water and not in a true mooring field.

Last spring we had eight boats break loose and run aground in just one part of Boca Ciega Bay. (There were no collisions in that storm). However, the three boats that had really good moorings in designed by a marine engineer were all fine. It is up to each boat owner to keep his or her boat secure.
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Old 26-01-2012, 14:35   #34
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Lancerbye View Post
When the smoke clears, the bottom feeders will be richer and the boat owners will end up poorer.

My view is that if your boat breaks free and hits my secured boat, I'll be protected. Tomatoes, tomahtoes, I suppose.
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Old 26-01-2012, 14:39   #35
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by scape View Post
i think you misunderstood something.

i'm saying if i have insurance and someone uninsured/underinsured hits me (assuming i have that insurance option, which I do for my car) then my insurance would pay to fix my belongings. that's precisely how it works for cars. once i'm all set, they would likely try to sue the moron that rammed in to me. i've been in a few car accidents to know exactly how i was affected. it sure can be complicated some times but at the end of the day, if i'm insured properly then I'm all set and taken care of.
I'm just curious how it works for boats and a floating vessel with no one on board, and the victim has insurance. seems like it would be moot for the wooden boat person as they are insured, unless it's a basic plan like some others have mentioned (liability only); I have no idea what kind of options are available for boat insurance.
if I owned an expensive boat I would insure the heck out of it
i do have an interesting story about Sea Tow and how insurance decided to pick up a 30k$ bill for the dirty tricks played by the towing company.

You're talking about the equivalent of "uninsured motorist" coverage on your boat, but I was talking about something else ... an insured boat breaks free, say in a storm, but my boat stays securely anchored, and the boat that breaks free hits my boat.

I have enough insurance on my boat that I can replace it with something that's suitable for a live-aboard/sailing cruiser. It is under-insured but there's enough that if Monty Python's foot comes down out of the sky and squashes my boat, I can get another one.

AND, watch out for the foot when you can!
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Old 26-01-2012, 14:42   #36
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by dancamp009 View Post
Neither boat had any insurance what-so-ever. Both boats are old and can't even buy comprehensive insurance if they could afford it. The ferro owner was aboard when it drug into the wooden boat, but didn't correct the situation before major damage occurred. Wooden boat owner, unfortunately, was not aboard that night, though he usually is.
It looks like he has to file a police report and then present his case to a lawyer if he wants to sue for maximum damages or use small claims court (without a lawyer) for $2500 or less. Wooden boat owner believes he has $20,000 in damage. I suggested he get estimates and then decide what road to take, but file his police reports immediately.
Thanks for all the help.

If his wooden boat were worth $20k he would have been able to get insurance. When the cost of repairs is more than the value of the car or boat, that's when the car or boat is "totaled." I was able to get my old Irwin, which wasn't worth more than $1500, insured.

Without insurance, he's going to have a harder time collecting, but if a police/Coast Guard report faults the cement boat, the wooden boat owner has a chance of getting something -- but it won't be more than the boat was worth.
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Old 26-01-2012, 14:46   #37
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Gene :^) View Post
Personally, I dislike all this blaming and sueing others and expecting "liability" to be with someone else.

If you are anchored or underway in public waters/waterway/anchorage then YOU are responsible to dodge floating debris sent your way by nature, no matter how big or small. What if a 36 inch diameter tree fell over in a storm 10 miles away and drifted into your boat? You going to sue the land owner?

Take some responsibility for yourself. You choose to use or anchor your boat in a public open space then you choose to accept the risk, especially if you leave that boat unattended.

Come on, we all drag at some point. We have no control of nature or bottom conditions.

If the Ferro boat sailed or motored or maneuvered into the Wood boat, then that would be the Ferro's responsibility for sure. That is different.

They are probably both there for the same reasons, they both own difficult to insure vessels and probably can not even enter a marina. All of us boaters need to stick together and work together. Sueing and trying to place blame on each other and trying to take what the other guy has is just going to lead to no boating fun for anyone but the rich due to rules, regulations, insurance requirements, higher insurance costs, higher requirements to even get insurance, and so on.


Just my opinion.

We have some control over both weather and bottom conditions. We are OBLIGATED to do the best job we can of securing our boat. That means using the right anchor for bottom conditions, having adequate rode, chain, etc. and keeping it in good condition. It means checking it frequently.

I completely disagree that assigning blame is wrong. Maybe they both contributed, but by gum I want protection from idiot boaters. IMO if you can't afford the insurance, you can't afford the boat.
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Old 26-01-2012, 15:04   #38
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
We have some control over both weather and bottom conditions.
Um, please do tell me how I can control, even somewhat, a pending storm. Or how I can change the bottom conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
We are OBLIGATED to do the best job we can of securing our boat. That means using the right anchor for bottom conditions, having adequate rode, chain, etc. and keeping it in good condition. It means checking it frequently.
Are you suggesting that hiring a diver/salvage company to set your anchor for you is not "doing the best job he can to secure his boat"?

And could you please direct me to an official source of what is adequate anchor, rode, chain, etc.

What do you mean by checking it frequently, are you suggesting he should have pulled it all up just prior to the storm to look at it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I completely disagree that assigning blame is wrong. Maybe they both contributed, but by gum I want protection from idiot boaters. IMO if you can't afford the insurance, you can't afford the boat.
How do you measure "idiot boaters"? In an anchorage full of boats, the best protection from idiot boaters is to stay upwind of them, since you don't know who is who then you have to stay away from everyone. How is this going to work?

How do you know who was there first? So if I anchor and someone anchors behind me, I am fully responsible for them even if I am not there?

People, if you go out in public take some responsibility for yourself. Common sense.
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Old 26-01-2012, 15:26   #39
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pirate Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
This is a serious issue, so I checked with my insurance company. They said they do not want me on my boat at anchor in a storm if I can get off safely, and that if my boat stays put and another one breaks loose and hits my boat, they would expect the other insurance company to pay. They value human safety over the boat.

In addition, when questioned further, they said that hauling up anchor by oneself in a storm, with other boats around, would not be prudent use of the boat. They wouldn't recommend bringing another person aboard to perform a potentially dangerous action (pulling up anchor in a crowded anchorage in a storm), either, since they would be liable for any injuries to that person.

You do what your insurance company -- or you -- thinks is right, but I would not be out in a storm trying to move my boat under the circumstances described. If there were WARNING of a storm and there were time, I would move it to a more sheltered location, because I've seen what can happen in a storm, including a boat collision. In that case (the collision), the boat that broke free was liable for the damages to the boat that remained anchored.

My insurance company also said I was not required to maintain a watch on an anchored boat, but that if my boat broke loose and damaged some other boat, I would be liable. They did say that I must follow regulations such as maintaining an adequate anchor light. They did say that they would expect me to check the boat periodically to make sure it remained securely anchored, rode in good shape, etc., and that my rates would go up if I permanently left my protected marina and moved my boat to open water and not in a true mooring field.

Last spring we had eight boats break loose and run aground in just one part of Boca Ciega Bay. (There were no collisions in that storm). However, the three boats that had really good moorings in designed by a marine engineer were all fine. It is up to each boat owner to keep his or her boat secure.
LOL.... if I was your insurance company I would not want you hauling anchor in a storm... if memory serves your not in the best condition for the task...
However... unlike you I have faith in me and do not do things just coz I'm covered to do so..
I like my boats and will protect them even at the risk of personal injury as I have in the past...
As far as I'm concerned at anchor its my business to make sure alls well... if it blows up I do something about it...
I do not say... "No worries mate I'm insured"
Its attitudes like that have turned the marine insurance industry into the farce it is today...
Oh.... and I've only had 1 accident claim when a dope in a car jumped a filter light at a junction as I approached on my bike...
T boned him beautifully and shattered a kneecap and broke a coupla 3 other bones...
If your at anchor protect your boat... don't expect others to..
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Old 26-01-2012, 15:31   #40
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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If your at anchor protect your boat... don't expect others to..
This is exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks.
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Old 26-01-2012, 17:00   #41
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

Well, I thought the question was about the chain of responsibility and claims, but hey, I never said go sue the guy! In fact I was suggesting an out of court soultion between the two by taking a note and having the guy pay for damages (maybe not fully explained) as further leverage.

If the underlying issue was a bad storm, there will certainly be a lesser degree of responsibility on that company and any owner, shxt happens, that's why we have insurance.

And yes, you need to do what is expected of a prudent owner, doing all you can do to secure your property and if damaged, immediately carry through so as to limit further damages to property. And not at the risk of life, as keeping yourself and others safe is the first duty, land or water.

The other comments are a matter of litigation, arguments to present, but not really a position that eliminates liability. I have been personally injured and had some small financiall losses arising from the stupidity of others and I did not sue them, in one case we worked it out and had them purchase me damaged vehicle, no court, no squabble, no big deal, stuff happens. But when someone is truly negligent and at fault and they hurt others, people certainly have the right to be made whole.

As a past Registered Creditor's Representative in Federal Bankruptcy Court, I've been to court a few times, and years prior having been an insurance agent with property, casualty and marine underwriting, I have been around very similar issues. Having written thosuands of contracts and instruments I can assure you that failure to perform does not always arise out of any breach of the agreement contemplated. Breach of contract is not the issue at all and is something entirely different than negligence or lack of performance where it is assumed that each will act in such a manner as to perform in good faith.

And yes, I would think that a diving/salvage type would be held to be enough of an expert to secure a floating object in the course of such work. Now, blows in storms and floods....that changes the picture entirely, as with the tree floating down river...that becomes a water hazard....
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Old 27-01-2012, 17:00   #42
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

This type of scenario happens quite frequently and is why a mooring permit here in Hawaii requires that you have insurance. I'd make pretty certain of who your neighbors are. If they are uninsured I'd move unless I too was uninsured. If I was uninsured I'd make certain I could deal with 100% loss plus make repairs to what/who my boat might damage. Wanting to be a good sailing citizen is different than actually being a good sailing citizen in some cases.

In all cases it'll be the courts that decide who is at fault and must pay and the attorneys will come away with their fees. Each case is different.

I hope they can sort it out but if ferroboat insists he has no obligation it will be woodboat who must hire an attorney or go to small claims court to get some type of settlement.
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Old 27-01-2012, 22:12   #43
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

Damages of $20,000 are too little to hire a lawyer for, especially since the ferrocement boat has no insurance. Probably uncollectible anyway if the ferrocement owner is determined to be liabile. The wood boat owner could do it himself but he would need to be smart enough to research the law. There should be a county law library. Washington state probably has a book there giving all the answers regarding negligence issues. Or pay a local lawyer $400 for a couple hours of consultation. As someone pointed out, there are potential areas of contributory negligence/comparative negligence that differ from state to state. Plus being in navegable waters, etc. its likely not easy to get the exact answer.
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Old 27-01-2012, 22:21   #44
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

Did not read all the threads but basically both are responsible to keep a proper look-out… even at anchor….. So the injured boat should have been ready to take decisive action in case the dragging boat did not….. It will be a percentage award
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Old 27-01-2012, 23:41   #45
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

... the guy with the least money ...
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