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Old 26-01-2012, 07:48   #16
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by dancamp009 View Post
Ferro owner has no insurance. .
This statement has no relevence to liability. The relevent facts are his boat damaged another boat, he will have to pay for it, one way or another.

The damagee will likely have to sue to collect, having a lawyer to assist may be helpfull. If the salvage company is at fault, that is between the captain of the ferro and the salvage company.


If he feels the salvage company is at fault, he may also have to hire a lawyer and sue to protect his interest.

Good luck to all.
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Old 26-01-2012, 08:41   #17
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

doesn't the wooden boat owner's insurance cover this sort of thing? i would imagine the insurance company itself would sue, on their own accord
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Old 26-01-2012, 08:51   #18
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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doesn't the wooden boat owner's insurance cover this sort of thing? i would imagine the insurance company itself would sue, on their own accord
If my boat hits your boat and I was at fault, then I am responsible for your repairs, period. You do not care whether I choose to go after whoever anchored my boat badly. that is not your problem.

My insurance company will NOT want to pay if someone else is liable. In addition, for car insurance, if they have to pay because the car that hit me was uninsured, my insurance will still go up. My insurance company does not want to pay for someone else's financial responsibility.

That's how insurance works. They insuring YOU. They can't make a risk judgment regarding that ferrio-cement boat anchored near you.

My insurance should not protect other boat owners, nor do I want it to. My premiums would go up.

Probably (but I don't know for sure) exceptions would be made in the case of a hurricane, which can turn anchorages and marinas into the equivalent of a 37-car pile up on a freeway. In such cases it can be very hard to determine who has how much liability for the accident.
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Old 26-01-2012, 09:05   #19
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pirate Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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doesn't the wooden boat owner's insurance cover this sort of thing? i would imagine the insurance company itself would sue, on their own accord
He's probably liability insurance only...
Anyway its a 50/50 situtaion... as far as insurance goes... two yachts anchored each should have had a watch...
wood boat 50% responsible for not getting outa the way... no excuse's...
everyone went ashore...? tough titty..
Bad News ... Yes.
Real Life... Yes... you may win some cash back but forget the value of the boat...
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Old 26-01-2012, 09:10   #20
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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He's probably liability insurance only...
Anyway its a 50/50 situtaion... as far as insurance goes... two yachts anchored each should have had a watch...
wood boat 50% responsible for not getting outa the way... no excuse's...
everyone went ashore...? tough titty..
Bad News ... Yes.
Real Life... Yes... you may win some cash back but forget the value of the boat...
'
Hopefully the cement boat DID have liability, and if he did ... he's liable. There is no requirement that I'm aware of that someone be on watch at all times while anchored, but there's a very strong responsibility that you manage your boat prudently and safely. That includes anchoring the boat well before you leave it.

I think you're one of the people who have chosen to self-insure, do I remember right? I think your view of things would serve an uninsured boater well, but I don't think that's how it would play out.
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Old 26-01-2012, 09:21   #21
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pirate Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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'
Hopefully the cement boat DID have liability, and if he did ... he's liable. There is no requirement that I'm aware of that someone be on watch at all times while anchored, but there's a very strong responsibility that you manage your boat prudently and safely. That includes anchoring the boat well before you leave it.

I think you're one of the people who have chosen to self-insure, do I remember right? I think your view of things would serve an uninsured boater well, but I don't think that's how it would play out.
I'm 3rd Party... aka Liability only... marina's demand it.. 97/yr
And it was a storm so if anchored someone should have been aboard... and thats what Insurers might well say..
if you love your boat more than any cash one may be able to claw back..
(funny old forum this.. anchoring threads have lotsa talk about Meercats owners and anchor watches but when something like this happens suddenly its just insurance liability with no watch needed)
But... as often chortled over here... I may well be wrong
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Old 26-01-2012, 09:34   #22
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

When the smoke clears, the bottom feeders will be richer and the boat owners will end up poorer.
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Old 26-01-2012, 09:56   #23
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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If my boat hits your boat and I was at fault, then I am responsible for your repairs, period. You do not care whether I choose to go after whoever anchored my boat badly. that is not your problem.

My insurance company will NOT want to pay if someone else is liable. In addition, for car insurance, if they have to pay because the car that hit me was uninsured, my insurance will still go up. My insurance company does not want to pay for someone else's financial responsibility.

That's how insurance works. They insuring YOU. They can't make a risk judgment regarding that ferrio-cement boat anchored near you.

My insurance should not protect other boat owners, nor do I want it to. My premiums would go up.

Probably (but I don't know for sure) exceptions would be made in the case of a hurricane, which can turn anchorages and marinas into the equivalent of a 37-car pile up on a freeway. In such cases it can be very hard to determine who has how much liability for the accident.
i think you misunderstood something.

i'm saying if i have insurance and someone uninsured/underinsured hits me (assuming i have that insurance option, which I do for my car) then my insurance would pay to fix my belongings. that's precisely how it works for cars. once i'm all set, they would likely try to sue the moron that rammed in to me. i've been in a few car accidents to know exactly how i was affected. it sure can be complicated some times but at the end of the day, if i'm insured properly then I'm all set and taken care of.
I'm just curious how it works for boats and a floating vessel with no one on board, and the victim has insurance. seems like it would be moot for the wooden boat person as they are insured, unless it's a basic plan like some others have mentioned (liability only); I have no idea what kind of options are available for boat insurance.
if I owned an expensive boat I would insure the heck out of it
i do have an interesting story about Sea Tow and how insurance decided to pick up a 30k$ bill for the dirty tricks played by the towing company.
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Old 26-01-2012, 10:09   #24
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

Neither boat had any insurance what-so-ever. Both boats are old and can't even buy comprehensive insurance if they could afford it. The ferro owner was aboard when it drug into the wooden boat, but didn't correct the situation before major damage occurred. Wooden boat owner, unfortunately, was not aboard that night, though he usually is.
It looks like he has to file a police report and then present his case to a lawyer if he wants to sue for maximum damages or use small claims court (without a lawyer) for $2500 or less. Wooden boat owner believes he has $20,000 in damage. I suggested he get estimates and then decide what road to take, but file his police reports immediately.
Thanks for all the help.
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Old 26-01-2012, 10:35   #25
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

What you are describing is called "subragation". An insurance company that indemnifies the insured arising from any insured peril will usually have the insured assign their rights as to claims against any responsible party. So yes,your insurance company could/would sue the owner of the boat that drifted. Your coverage may include uninsured parties, but that only makes the claim easier for you with your coverage has has nothing to do with the insurance company having the right to seek repayment or to be indemnified for the loss.

Carry it one step further now. The insurance company (or you) obtains a judgment against the owner of the floating hazard. Now, he has suffered a financial loss. The owner hired a professional in an area requiring certain competence in performing a service, tossing the anchor out in this case and ensuring it was set sufficiently to protect not only his craft but from being a hazard to others. They clearly failed in their duty. So the owner of the hazard can seek to be indemnified for his loss and file suit against the company that performed the service.

That's pretty well the story will go as without suffering a loss, you won't have a case. The owner of the get away boat could also seek damages against the company if his boat was damaged.

It's a chain of responsibility and duty of a reasonable person as well as any operator/capitan having responsibility. I suspect the USCG or other law enforcement authorities would issue tickets/fines to the owner of the boat that got away as well as to any operator who failed to maintain the vessel.

Keep in mind in any case of liability, the first line of defense is to deny that responsibility, like the company that set the anchor, but rest assured, they have insurance just for issues like this or they probably could not operate.

This is only my opinion and should not be construed as legal advice, see your attorney and let them tell you how to proceed.

PS. That initial degree of care required could be limited too, if you were on a river for example and the forecast did not indicate much rain, but then it rained for five days and cased a flash flood which could not be unforseen, that duty of care could then be seen as reasonable and prudent, meaning the company could be off the hook...so to speak! Just another though....
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Old 26-01-2012, 10:36   #26
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

What exactly does the wood owner plan to do if he wins his court case?

If the ferro owner is a live aboard, then he probably doesn't have any shore side assets. He's boat was also damaged, (yes or no?). A damaged ferro boat is typically almost worthless. There won't be much point in putting a lien on that damaged ferro boat, both because the live aboard owner likely won't sell, and because it's likely not worth enough to cover a lien.

It would sure be a shame to spend money on a lawyer win a course case, only to find out that the ferro owner has no assets, no income, and no chance at ever repaying anything.
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Old 26-01-2012, 10:41   #27
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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only a judge can say, and not until money has crossed the palms of lawyers!
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Old 26-01-2012, 10:53   #28
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Neither boat had any insurance what-so-ever. Both boats are old and can't even buy comprehensive insurance if they could afford it. The ferro owner was aboard when it drug into the wooden boat, but didn't correct the situation before major damage occurred. Wooden boat owner, unfortunately, was not aboard that night, though he usually is.
It looks like he has to file a police report and then present his case to a lawyer if he wants to sue for maximum damages or use small claims court (without a lawyer) for $2500 or less. Wooden boat owner believes he has $20,000 in damage. I suggested he get estimates and then decide what road to take, but file his police reports immediately.
Thanks for all the help.
Sorry I missed that, if the owner was aboard, the company is off the hook, IMO. Limites in small claims varies state to state, mine is ten thousand. Absolutely call the authorities and get a report filed. Estimates will be required to establish the financial loss.

And what if the owner of the wooden boat had been aboard, asleep and was injured? If I didn't have liability coverage on a boat I would not have it any where near other boats or improvements like a dock! In fact, I wouldn't be out there at all....really. Small boats are generally covered under your homeowners policy or renters policy for liability only (under general liability that protects you from stupid things you might do).

Reminds me, don't ever go hunting with Dick Cheney without checking his policies!
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Old 26-01-2012, 10:53   #29
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

dan, woodboat's lawyer will probably tell him to sue ferroboat AND the vendor that set the anchor, and let the court decide if they want to join the third party (the vendor) or not. Without knowing WA state laws, I'd guess ferroboat is going to be held liable ot ome extent, perhaps not 100, but then he's got a claim against the vendor, which is why all 3 parties should be in the same action although the court may require ferro to bring in the third party claim, or not, at his own option.

No pun intended the case could drag on, i.e. if ferroboat instructed the vendor "use this anchor" and the anchor wasn't sufficient for the storm...then someone has to decide if the vendor just fulfilled his contract or should have refused it. If the vendor is joined into the suit, odds are he's got an insurer and the insurer will delay the case then make some offer before the court date in order to try avoiding further costs.

It's America, you sue everybody and hope for a "Bronx jury".
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Old 26-01-2012, 11:12   #30
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

True, then there is contributory negligence, my state is not. And if you obtain a judgment, make sure you don't allow it to expire over time, keep it in full effect. You may not get a dime, but I have seen many paid as people find that life with a judgment can be frustrating (they won't be buying a home for example), difficult to get a bank account and other credit extended, even renting an apartment.

I would also getting a note for the damages and secure it by a UCC filing on the boat, if he takes bankruptcy at least you'd be a secured creditor to the extent of the collateral taken, so list all he has!

This is a horror story and sounds like the wooden owner is SOL....and it's a good example of what to consider having an older boat or building your own....
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