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Old 02-02-2016, 15:08   #46
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
if i won lottery i would have dough for a larger work crew so more time on water lol.
mebbe move up to a 51......formosa....
I think I'll open a new thread on that theme.
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Old 02-02-2016, 15:13   #47
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

I must address some misconceptions

1) a brand new boat is NOT ready to sail. Depending on sailing plans, one year fixing can be barely not enough
2) many, like me, do NOT, like an ordinary design, and want to personalize the boat, add features, change/adapt/upgrade gear
3) whatever the financials, you must either know your boat quite in detail, or pay a captain to do that!

3 compelling arguments, I'd say.

I find it a must to pour money/time in a boat:
- with a solid design and built
- that you intend to keep for long, or as your last boat, or within family over time.

If this is the case, there is no reason to complain, in so far owning a boat nowadays is also much about scrubbing and cleaning, either new or old boat doesn't matter..
Gone are the days of the very rich and of very cheap manpower.

Old boat float equally well. You may have it new, but if you want a 4G radar, your brand new radar is to be decommissioned... it is to say, often we push our things in the past ourselves.

As to the engine, if in need so desperately it means that you forgot it for too long. Nothing is for good
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Old 02-02-2016, 15:25   #48
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

You have two phases of concern, "balsa cored side deck" and "encapsulated keel". I love maintaining and restoring "classic" boats, it is as much part of my hobby as sailing them but it is a highly skilled fun hobby of it's own not a 'cheap way to get a boat'. If that is not you you should probably not get involved. Also you need to be very good at assessing the project in the first place. Yes you will almost inevitably find something you missed but if you are relying on a surveyor forget it, you should be able to do a much better survey than anything a "commercial surveyor" will give you, that's just for the ins'. Finally restoring a cheap modern production cruiser, even if it is possible, is never going to be economic. They a designed to reduce production costs and have a limited life. Things like balsa cored decks will fail and when they do are almost impossible to satisfactorily repair. You need to be starting with a hull that has a design life in excess of 50yrs to even think about it. The possible exception is a well built and maintained steel hull as they are so easy to repair but you may eventually replace all the bottom plates!
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Old 02-02-2016, 15:38   #49
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

JMK, if she has significant deck delam and needs a new diesel etc., I would start looking for a new boat. Find out what you can realistically get for yours as is, what your next boat will cost (including some inevitable work) and then calculate the cost/benefit analysis. There are some very good deals to be had.....

That being said, unless you are buying a relatively new boat (4 0r 5 years old), you will also be getting into a fairly large refit in fairly short order....

Over the last seven years I spent $70K on a refit on my boat, keeping most of the major purchases until my retirement this past July. Understand that when I purchased her (on a bank repo) she had low hours on her diesels, zero osmotic blisters (epoxy interprotect from new) and recent standing rigging. If I had needed to replace the diesels, deal with hull issues etc. it would have never been worth the money, time and effort. As it is, I would never recoup what I have spent, although at least I have a boat with:

- new sails (main 2015, headsail and staysail 2013).
- new thru-hulls seacocks, 2015
-new holding tank, water tanks, head hoses and hoses below. the waterline 2015
- new awlgrip topsides, 2015
- wet rudders and spongey aft deck removed, cut open, dried, and replaced with new foam core, epoxy resin, 2015
- new davits, 2015
- new RIB with new 20 HP Yamaha OB, 2015
- new lifelines, 2015
- new additonal solar panels, 2015
- new 1050 amp/hr house battery bank, 2015
- new inverter, 2015
- new solid bimini plus new canvass dodger,/cockpit enclosure
- new cockpit cushions 2015
- new berth cushions, 2015 (other cushions new 2012)
- new filter boss dual diesel filters for each diesel, 2015
- new 100 amp Balmar alternators, smart regulators, 2015
- new starter motors, 2015
- new saildrive seals, 2013
- new sheet/furling blocks and running rigging, 2013
- new radar, 2016
- new VHF with AIS, 2016
- new deck hatches/portlights 2010 - 2015
- new shower and galley faucets and new water pressure pump, 2015
- new keel-cooled refrigeration module, 2015
- new water heater, 2015
- new LED light fixtures throughout, 2015
- new drogue chainplates, 2015
- new drogue, 2015
- new 3/8" chain anchor rode
- new impeller for knot/log, 2015
- new foot switch for electric windlass 2015

And numerous spares as most of these items were still functional.

The is also to say nothing of a massive interior refit, replacing all glued on vinyl headliners with removable frp panels, new soles, teak trim, etc. over my period of ownership. My survey value is 10K over my investment although realistically, the acual market value is probably 35K below that. While I have a boat where all sysrems are now better than most 7 year old boats (and I did it for a total price of about 60% of a 7 year old 40 foot cat that probably needs sails, lifelines, running and standing rigging, I can never get the time and effort back and I still have an old, if good old boat.

Don't even think about a massive refit!

Brad
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Old 02-02-2016, 15:52   #50
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

Having just started to sail our boat after 2 years of refit I feel the pain. I guess the answer depends on the owners plans.

For us we have 7 more years before we retire (9 when we bought the boat) to sail her and fix the little stuff and finish outfitting.

As we were eating dinner recently with family and discussing our winning of the powerball the comment was made "we will know you won because you will have a new boat". Our response was, No we will just disappear and sail the boat we have for a few years as we have worked too hard on her to just let her go.

It is a good test, if you had unlimited funds would you pay to finish all the work due to invested time or would you buy a newer boat and walk away?
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Old 02-02-2016, 16:16   #51
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

With unlimited funds!? I'd commission a boat to Ron Holland, pretending to design it to my own specs
With indecent funding? I'd give my boat golden sails

In the middle, I could think of restoring an Abeking&Rasmussen
:-):-):-)
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Old 02-02-2016, 16:31   #52
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
Why will some people spend ooohgobs of money and untold hours in their garage working on an old 57 Chevy when they could just turn the key on a Toyota and drive? To the person who doesn't have that calling there is no explaining it...

We get such a feeling of accomplishment out of it, and there is a pride that comes with sailing a boat that is so very personally yours because you have literally put so much of yourself into it.
Good way to put it. I've been working on my boat and enjoy the process and learning more about the inner workings. My wife just asks me "why not buy a new one ready to go" and just doesn't understand the accomplishment aspect you mentioned.

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It is a good test, if you had unlimited funds would you pay to finish all the work due to invested time or would you buy a newer boat and walk away?
I would probably keep doing what I'm doing. Working on it myself and getting her ready for the water again. The only thing "unlimited" funds would give me would be the time to work on it since I wouldn't have to be working to afford it.
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Old 02-02-2016, 17:00   #53
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

I guess it all boils down to those that really want to spend time living on a boat.

Most people would think it very strange to spend $10,000 fixing up an old boat unless you were going to live on it.

Those of you with homes, have you ever seen a 550 sq ft apartment? It's really small. Too small but gigantic compared to a boat

A sailor though can have a small boat around 30' or less for under 10K and sail it for months before doing serious repairs.

With this approach, you can sail a good part of the year, and do repairs the other part while renting an apartment

My experience with monohull sailors is that many would rather have a beautiful boat that they restored than sail it. They actually may be the folks with the right idea and the happiest.

Some folks on CF recently have stated they are going to start the cruising life soon and sell all.

Not a good idea especially for older folks. I've seen sailors that lived in the heat (30 degrees latitude and below) that left and tried the cruising life. They sold everything etc including their cars only to come back within 3-6 months and start over

For those of you up North, you may want to think about what time of year you will be sailing down South, or do you plan to be hooked up to a dock someplace with the AC on full blast and simply be a liveaboard on your boat (in your cave)
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Old 02-02-2016, 18:18   #54
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

If you wish to be a sailor then buy a good boat up front. In the coming years you will learn to be proficient in maintenance. If you wish to learn about the maintenance of boats buy one that requires work and maybe someday you'll be a sailor.

It isn't by chance that many mechanics drive the cars that need work. They like being mechanics as much as they like to drive.

Only you know what you want to be.
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Old 02-02-2016, 21:50   #55
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

You don't have to buy, or have, everything new to have a well-found boat. But this this new or used argument I think sometimes boils down to anxiety versus security and the drive to lessen one and increase the other until you find that point where you feel ready to go. (I am not speaking now of those who just love the process of boat restoration.) Some folks need everything new and modern before they feel secure in leaving. Some just need a sound hull, good sails and good rigging and they feel secure. Some are fine with little or no electronics, and others will not consider a boat that does not have the latest radar, AIS and chartplotters to be safe. Most of us are probably somewhere in between. This is all entirely personal. So, for those who don't feel secure enough until the old boat is made entirely like new again, and they don't have a lot of time and money, it may never leave the dock or yard. I have seen old salts with practically nothing suddenly untie and go, and others with a beautifully equipped new boat who just use it for drinks on the weekend. And I may sound like I am passing judgement here, but I really don't want to. I have good friends in all camps. (But I used to be quite judgemental, under my breath, in my younger days.) It seems a boat, as with all things, is loved for how it makes us feel, and that is a complicated, unique, personal thing... so is the decision of when to let go of a boat.
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Old 03-02-2016, 00:56   #56
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

To get back, just a bit to where the OP was coming from, this boat is a Gulfstar, not a boat known for deep down solidity of construction, hence the keel delaminization they already dealt with, for $10 k, and assuming that is alright now, but still unknown to us as to whiat issues of the make the owner has addressed, and which remain......

Looking for some input here from the OP.

a.
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:28   #57
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

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My experience with monohull sailors is that many would rather have a beautiful boat that they restored than sail it. They actually may be the folks with the right idea and the happiest.

Here we go again....... As if you can't fix up a boat and sail it too... Yep, us boat fixers don't sail. That's why we do it, so we can NOT SAIL. Good Lord.

Some folks on CF recently have stated they are going to start the cruising life soon and sell all.

Not a good idea especially for older folks. I've seen sailors that lived in the heat (30 degrees latitude and below) that left and tried the cruising life. They sold everything etc including their cars only to come back within 3-6 months and start over

And then again.....the Caribbean, the Med, and many other places are just crawling with retired cruisers who are doing exactly what you are saying they shouldn't do.

Let's turn this whole thing around and say that "maybe finding an old boat, spending minimal money to fix it up and then sailing it as a weekend warrior while living shore side is fine for some, but maybe other people want MORE. Such as, a properly appointed and comfortable boat that actually feels like home, and a full time cruising life that THEY get to decide where and whether or not they are too old for.

Just sayin.....
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:31   #58
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

You are correct, Ann..... There is a point where cutting and walking away make more sense, especially if the quality of the boat isn't there to begin with, and if the issues are many and especially if any are structural in nature. It would be good to hear additional input from the OP, and to know what they have decided to do.
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:36   #59
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

Its all a matter of perspective.
If I came across that boat cheaply, the hull is sound, a minor repair or two, a lick of paint, I would be off sailing. Do I care what others think? nope. Can I sail with a leaky this or that? yep...

Few boats are forever boats.
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:53   #60
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Re: When to give up on a good old boat

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If you wish to be a sailor then buy a good boat up front. In the coming years you will learn to be proficient in maintenance. If you wish to learn about the maintenance of boats buy one that requires work and maybe someday you'll be a sailor.

It isn't by chance that many mechanics drive the cars that need work. They like being mechanics as much as they like to drive.

Only you know what you want to be.
That's right, only you know what you want

And you can buy an old boat that is a good one.

I was sailing my boat within about a month after I bought it even though it was 35 years old and had been on the hard unattended for 5 years.

I did the necessary things first then completed other tasks later.

I still haven't replaced the rigging or any thruhulls, rebedded any deck hardware, etc.....

but I did take it out and test it a bit in winds up to 30 mph with the sails up, and 35 knots with the sails down (I took them down due to a squall which I didn't know the strength of)

I'm still testing the boat .......
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