What's Up with Living on the Hook in Florida ?

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I doubt it, not my connotation anyway. I refer to the old song, Gypsies, tramps and thieves. People who stay long enough to prey upon anyone they can, steal anything they can even small things like the toilet paper and silverware.
I lived in Germany for a few years in the military and believe it or not, but there are really still Gypsies. They as a group are not well liked at all, but I believe Germans have a deep seated sense of guilt from WWII and will tolerate things most other cultures won't. The Gypsies didn't impress me at all.

AH, yes, I don't steal. Gypsy for me means: "One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life", which pretty much defines me. A gypsy can be a thieve too, but being a Gypsy does not automatically imply being one.

Oddly enough I am well aware of the Romany folk. I for one am glad that the world has so many interesting people in it. What a boring place it would be if all we had were white republicans.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I doubt it, not my connotation anyway. I refer to the old song, Gypsies, tramps and thieves. People who stay long enough to prey upon anyone they can, steal anything they can even small things like the toilet paper and silverware.
I lived in Germany for a few years in the military and believe it or not, but there are really still Gypsies. They as a group are not well liked at all, but I believe Germans have a deep seated sense of guilt from WWII and will tolerate things most other cultures won't. The Gypsies didn't impress me at all.

Gypsies is a somewhat generic term, and these can be found all over Europe. There are also different ethnic groups within the term , like Romanis, Irish Travellers etc.

None of these groups could be compared to say a former land dweller now living on a boat

Dave

[a64pilot]

Dave,
I'm sure you are correct, if nothing else they seemed to be in groups.
Only point was to some, Gypsies doesn't mean a warm hearted, free wandering soul with good intentions. To some its a derogatory term. I meant it to be deragatory, and wanted to make sure I'm understood that living on the hook, did not make you a Gypsie. It's activities that have nothing at all to do with boating that may make one a Gypsie.
In my opinion, whatever that's worth

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Dave,
I'm sure you are correct, if nothing else they seemed to be in groups.
Only point was to some, Gypsies doesn't mean a warm hearted, free wandering soul with good intentions. To some its a derogatory term. I meant it to be deragatory, and wanted to make sure I'm understood that living on the hook, did not make you a Gypsie. It's activities that have nothing at all to do with boating that may make one a Gypsie.
In my opinion, whatever that's worth

Yet you used the word Sea-gypsy to imply that one living and wandering on a low cost boat. Luckily I don't consider being a gypsy to be derogatory. Though I've overheard yachty wife's using that term toward me in a derogatory fashion. I just laugh.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The problem is and has always been, how do you keep the sea gypsies and bums out, (ref the boat with the French couple that recently grounded in the Bahamas) but not adversely affect the honest working people. I'm trying to keep income out of it as income does not equate to either honest or hard working, but it has been the filter used in the past.

I don't have a clue how to do it it's a really tough thing to figure out

I don't know how to multi-quote on an Ipad, so I only quoted myself.
I did not mean to infer someone living a wandering life style in a low cost boat as a Gypsie and don't see where I did. I used the french couple as my Gypsie example.
If I have offended, I apologize as that was not my intent.
But as with anything, there is a 1% that can give all a bad rep., just as in the Gold platers. I'm sure most are good, like-able people, but some are arrogant a$$holes.
Uh-oh, have I now offended the few that can afford the big, expensive boats now?

[Nicholson58]

The, "We pay taxes, they don't" has nothing to do with the discussion.

Transients & long time parked live-aboards do not use the roads, vote, use the electricity, send children to school, or otherwise impact most of the infrastructure. They do shop, eat, buy fuel & supplies, buy fishing licenses, pump-outs, sometimes moorings, docks. They pay local fee for service, sales taxes & support local retail. The entire argument about residents paying taxes etc. and boaters - not, is nonsense.

BTW, we in Michigan can park or camp or anchor indefinitely many places in the woods or water. Parking is not a violation of law unless you are in the roadway, waterway. Nearly 50% of our land area is 'owned/controlled' by the Fed or State. We independent cusses consider the words of our FED in this regard, 'holding in trust for the use of the people'. TO that end, we took to the woods en mass when the Feds presumed to shut down half our state last fall as though they owned it.

It seems to me that the issue is and should be about boaters, or anyone else, stealing or destroying property or otherwise causing real harm. It doesn't matter if they are passing through, transients, or long term visitors. In this regard, there is no difference between parked for a day, week or 6 months. Anyone who presumes to tell me or anyone else how they may live is way too involved in micromanaging somebody else. Live your own darn life.

[jcknox]

Anyone who presumes to tell me or anyone else how they may live is way too involved in micromanaging somebody else. Live your own darn life.[/QUOTE]

Bravo!!!

[RunningRabbit]

Another "Bravo!" on the the micromanagers needing to lay off and live their own lives! Sadly, some are even boaters/cruisers. I thought I could escape all the condo-commando neighborhood-nazi-types by moving aboard, but unfortunately the boating community has its own share of dock mothers and folks who get their panties in a twist over VHF protocols. *Sigh.* (Though I admit the thread last winter about whether it was OK to pour pee down the galley sink was quite entertaining!)

And the tax argument is so off the mark. I pay gobs of sales taxes, income taxes, bridge and road tolls, etc. Florida may not have income tax, but they are certainly not supported solely by real estate taxes... sales taxes are astronomical there and take up a far larger percentage of my income than that of most waterfront property owners. Florida also thoroughly loves taxing tourists in any way they can, especially with the bed tax on hotel rooms. The idea that property owners are funding everything with their real estate taxes is utter BS. (Beside the fact that our system in this country does NOT allocate services to people in direct proportion to their tax contribution in any way, shape, or form.) The issue is about wealthy property owners wrongly thinking they own the view; the tax argument is subterfuge.

What really frosts me is this idea that people living on their boats are all a bunch of transient, semi-homeless, "Gypsies" (whether meant as an actual ethnic reference, a compliment, or an insult), who don't really contribute to society. I know full time school teachers who live aboard. I know attorneys working full time (and some working for FedGov) living on the hook. I know people with kids enrolled in land-locked elementary schools and who live in marinas and some who live at anchor. People who live on their boats full time cut across the social and income-strata of society and while there are some scoundrels and thieves, for the most part they are hard-working, tax-paying, wind- and water-loving folks who often believe in good environmental stewardship and living lives a little less ordinary.

Under Florida law one is a "liveaboard" if the boat is never used for navigation. (See http://www.boatus.com/gov/flanchoringsheet/ and Fla. Stat. sec. 327.02(17) Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine). But if you so much as pull up your anchor once a month and cruise over to the pump out station or fuel dock, you are a cruiser my friend. I understand folks wanting to address issues around actual derelict vessels, but in Florida it is class warfare against people who are perceived as the poor, undesirable, or different. I will never want my boat to look fancy--I'd rather they go rip off someone else's boat or dink. But that doesn't mean I'm a "derelict," that I don't follow environmental and marine laws, or that I don't contribute meaningfully to society (even if I am a lowly law-yer).

[Dulcesuenos]

I would have to think there's more people living in low income housing, sucking off welfare, obamacare ,pumping out babies they don't raise or support, doing anything to not work, and milk the system than there will ever be living on boats. At least the OP is focussed on work etc, maybe the cold as gotten to some peoples brains.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[a64pilot]

I don't think anyone said that people living on the hook are bums, I used a 1% number saying that 1% of any group of people are suspect in any group. Expression comes from motorcycling, meaning it only takes 1% to give the other 99% bad names.
I would say that the major problem this country faces is an excessive amount of entitlements, and that has nothing at all to do with the majority of cruisers, although I have heard on this forum that apparently at least some cruise on un-employment, they were called 99 week cruisers of something similar. So I guess even the cruising community isn't immune. Just means cruisers are just like everybody else I assume.
My Plan is one day once I get the last kid through College etc., is to sell out and cruise. I expect to spend as much time as possible living on the hook myself as I'm not rich now and won't be then so I'll have to watch my money.

Funny thing too me is I never really thought about being able to live like a lot of you do, I thought I'd never be able to afford it, as I though you had to be rich to own and maintain a "Yacht".
But through this forum, I think I will be able to do it comfortably, just gotta get the wife to buy into it.

[RunningRabbit]

I doubt anyone explicitly said in this thread that liveaboards are "bums," (and I definitely didn't mean to imply anyone in particular said that, so apologies if I gave that impression), but that is a general perception that gets used by folks wanting state and local government to find a way to get liveaboards/cruisers out of their view. When I read vitriolic comments about anchor-outs on the St. Augustine newspaper site, I was so disheartened. But I already knew firsthand that view was out there: before I ever moved aboard I was on the Miami waterfront board and tried to fight against the folks who wanted to use managed mooring fields to rid Miami of folks on the hook. The comment (I think by sailorchic34, but apologies if that's not correct) that mooring fields are just a ruse to get rid of available anchorages is spot on!

My comment was inspired by a variety of posts in this thread and the general issue of "living on the hook in Florida" or elsewhere and not targeted to any specific quote from anyone except as to down with micromanagers and agreeing the tax argument is bunk. There can be a lot of snarkiness and personal attacks in this forum and I make an especial effort not to target or flame anyone (even when someone clearly needs a spanking--the mods like to give out the lashings). I strive to let my posts reflect my opinion and limited knowledge, and sometimes my disagreement with a particular view, and not let it get personal. (Though striving isn't always achieving).

I love a64pilot's comment about having thought you'd have to be rich to maintain and own a yacht; it definitely captures one of our challenges. I feel like I am constantly faced with two utterly divergent perceptions of my lifestyle. One is that I must have buckets of money because everyone knows boats are really expensive. The other is that since I live on a boat I am basically homeless. For the most part, I'm kind of in the middle. And there are months when I'm feeling flush and going to West Marine, and months where I'm seriously worried about paying for my slip and provisions. I bet most folks out there are not at either extreme, but treading somewhere in the middle, with ups and downs--like most people, anywhere. (And there are cruisers who look homeless, but live off an ample portfolio... go figure). I would definitely love to be able to shoestring cruise on $500 a month and I believe there are several members here who have done or currently do that successfully.

[a64pilot]

In my opinion, uh-oh I might be getting myself into trouble here, a lot of the resentment may come from the opinion that your getting something for free, that they had to pay for. I.E. a lot of people living in South Fl., don't originate there, in their mind they worked hard all their life to be able to fulfill their dream and retire in sunny Fl. and here you are getting it for free. People can't stand the thought that they over paid for something.
They feel that they had to pay, and darn it you should have to as well.

I'm a pretty active cave diver, and well we haven't always had a stellar reputation, especially with the State of Fl., but for the last several years we have organized and have regular clean up days in the local rivers and parks and raise money to improve facilities etc. Now we have a very good working relationship with the Rangers etc., and at least in Marianna Fl. the local Government loves us as they have come to realize how much money we bring in and they bend over backwards for us. It's all a perception.

Maybe you guy's could organize an association and maybe adopt a section of highway, get on the local news cleaning up the beach or something? Just a thought.

[RunningRabbit]

Agreed that perception goes a long way! I'm not currently in Florida, but I'm getting ready to head south and frankly scared at the thought of living aboard in Florida because of the anti-cruiser sentiment (both heard of and seen firsthand). But I also know Florida a bit because lived in Miami for most of my adult life and much of that time was I involved with boating.

I agree with the view that there is resentment from folks who feel they worked hard for something others are getting for free/cheap; the irony is that there isn't any income tax in Florida, and there were major caps on property tax increases for one's homestead (at least when I was there), so sales tax, foreigners buying property, and tourists pay for a lot of stuff.

I absolutely agree the boating community (not just liveaboard/cruisers) would be well served to be organized to demonstrate positive community contributions and to show we are good people and good environmental stewards. The perception that we all pump overboard is widespread and (mostly) inaccurate, but there isn't enough of an organized effort to combat that at the local level, where it counts. I've also heard cruisers get a bad name in some countries because they do all their provisioning stateside and then don't spend anything in the local economies. I'm going to make a special effort not to be like that. Even on a shoestring, I want to eat local food and drink local beer and rum at least part of the time. To me, that's what traveling is all about.

I guess I could be a rabble-rouser and try to organize folks, whether it's to fight for legal protections or to do beach clean-ups or tutor at local libraries. It's just that from having done the civic activist thing in Miami I learned that it can be a major time sink (hmmm... kinda like this forum...) and I have to make sure I don't take on too much at the expense of my own life. But that's some major thread drift, sorry. Perhaps I'll have to start a new thread on how we can give back and promote our cause in an organized way.

[JayCall]

There seems to be a good bit of talk about "entitlement" with virtually all the references to programs for the economically disadvantaged with the presumption that those folks a deliberately "taking advantage" of something. Well, the entitlement issues cuts the other way as well. Those who don't want to see a sailboat of any kind, old, new, liveaboird ar crising, in front of their property feel "entitled" to that and the expect a local jurisdiction to enforce that entitlement for them. they feel entitled to that as they think they are the chief supporters of that jurisdiction.

They are fine with the poor, or even "lower" class folks living acros the tracks, or on the other side of town, or in the next town inland, they are "entitled" not to have to see them or deal with them in their daily lives. Except of course when they show up to clean house, or cut the grass or wash the boat!

They feel especially entitled to not have to disrupt their lives on those people's behalf, or to help them in any way beyond the payment of taxes because the government is already doing too much for them and they are all just ripping the government off anyway.

There is more than enough sense of entitlement to go around.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by JayCall

There seems to be a good bit of talk about "entitlement" with virtually all the references to programs for the economically disadvantaged with the presumption that those folks a deliberately "taking advantage" of something. Well, the entitlement issues cuts the other way as well. Those who don't want to see a sailboat of any kind, old, new, liveaboird ar crising, in front of their property feel "entitled" to that and the expect a local jurisdiction to enforce that entitlement for them. they feel entitled to that as they think they are the chief supporters of that jurisdiction.

They are fine with the poor, or even "lower" class folks living acros the tracks, or on the other side of town, or in the next town inland, they are "entitled" not to have to see them or deal with them in their daily lives. Except of course when they show up to clean house, or cut the grass or wash the boat!

They feel especially entitled to not have to disrupt their lives on those people's behalf, or to help them in any way beyond the payment of taxes because the government is already doing too much for them and they are all just ripping the government off anyway.

There is more than enough sense of entitlement to go around.

Agreed 100%, even among boaters, Sailors call power boats, stinkpots and power boaters think of sailors as being cheap, both stereotypes of course