We are we seeing electric stove tops on blue water cruisers?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Have not seen anyone say propane is always safe, which post was that ?

Post #50:

"Propane? Perfectly safe."


And numerous posts with "only idiots blow themselves up with propane", or other words to that effect.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...Electrical safety is a technology which has been developed over 100+ years and is pretty mature. There are relatively few accidents with electricity despite its being used everywhere and by everyone. Every single electrical appliance you buy, and all electrical systems, are designed using safety principles which have been worked out on the basis of enormous worldwide experience.

Electrical safety issues are almost the same on boats, as on land, so we get all the benefit of land technology....

Put more eloquently, but we get the same position from the electrical proponents

If it were really that well understood and safe we wouldn't need electrical code updates every three years. Ground fault/residual current devices aren't really that old. Arc fault devices even less so. Arc flash rules keep getting us further from energized circuits and with more PPE.

Arc fault fires from hidden wiring damage are significant enough that in the US arc fault detection has become required in most new residential construction.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My source is a senior RNLI officer of my acquaintance, who stated that in 2015 gas explosions was the leading cause of yachting deaths in the UK, whereas it's usually 2d or 3rd. Drowning is normally #1. He's a proponent of banning propane on yachts. He considers the risks to be completely out of proportion to the narrow function for which it's used. I don't agree, but it is a widely held among SAR professionals.

He was -- and I am -- talking about yachting, cruising, that is, boating in the sea in a vessel you can spend the night on.

The Boat US and USCG statistics include all kinds of boating, and as we all know 90% of boats in the U.S., if not more, are small outboard motor boats used on lakes and inland water. No gas explosion possible, obvious, so what happens on such vessels is irrelevant to this discussion.

No, we are talking the same kind of boats (USCG and BoatUS data is quite detailed). and I prefer to rely on factual insurance actuarial statistics than dock talk with some guy I know.

This UK study contradicts everything you are saying and there are many more easily found with Google that show similar data.

[goat]

Let's see. On board I've got; diesel for the engine, alcohol for the stove, kerosene for the heater, lamp oil for the lamps, disposable propane bottles for the BBQ, gasoline for the dinghy outboard, and electricity for lights and instruments.

I'm as good as dead.

goat

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

No, we are talking the same kind of boats (USCG and BoatUsdata is quite detailed). and I prefer to rely on factual insurance actuarial statistics than dock talk with some guy I know.

OK, my mind is open -- let's see them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goat

Let's see. On board I've got; diesel for the engine, alcohol for the stove, kerosene for the heater, lamp oil for the lamps, disposable propane bottles for the BBQ, gasoline for the dinghy outboard, and electricity for lights and instruments.

I'm as good as dead.

goat

Indeed not. Diesel is incredibly safe. It might be dangerous if you drink a couple of liters and poison yourself. Of course, it stanks, but that's not what we're talking about. Alcohol causes fires but extremely rarely anything worse. Kerosene -- see diesel. Lamp oil -- are you serious? Propane on deck -- no problem. Gasoline -- outside of the main hull volume, fine. Electricity -- relatively safe. None of these compares even remotely to LPG.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...Diesel is incredibly safe...

Maybe, but what about its combustion products? Have already pointed to the number of CO deaths from exhaust leaks. LPG can give you CO as well, but we burn much smaller amounts and for much shorter periods than diesel in the generator or engine.

All it takes is one poorly maintained system or accident and you all die with cherry lips. And that's really the point here, every single one of these proposed systems requires proper installation, operation, and maintenance. Absent those, you can be dead. With those, well you've mitigated your risks.

[Stumble]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that the likelyhood of a propane explosion is minimal, but if you can completely avoid it why take the risk? So long as their is a reasonable alternative why accept the risk of a propane explosion.

If speccing a new boat I would go with electrical induction. But I don't plan to rip out my gas oven any time soon either.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Maybe, but what about its combustion products? Have already pointed to the number of CO deaths from exhaust leaks. LPG can give you CO as well, but we burn much smaller amounts and for much shorter periods than diesel in the generator or engine.

All it takes is one poorly maintained system or accident and you all die with cherry lips. And that's really the point here, every single one of these proposed systems requires proper installation, operation, and maintenance. Absent those, you can be dead. With those, well you've mitigated your risks.

Yes, I agree entirely.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that the likelyhood of a propane explosion is minimal, but if you can completely avoid it why take the risk? So long as their is a reasonable alternative why accept the risk of a propane explosion.

If speccing a new boat I would go with electrical induction. But I don't plan to rip out my gas oven any time soon either.

What about that dinghy outboard gas/petrol bomb hanging out buried in the lazarette? You can avoid that by just using a rowing dinghy. Better for you too. All comes down to personal taste and choices in your degree-of-comfort selections.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, my mind is open -- let's see them.

I've already provided you with a BoatUS link and a UK study which both contradict you. here is one USCG report of many with similar contradictions.

How many do you need ? Google has dozens of them.

Any fuel is dangerous if used incorrectly.

[robert sailor]

Tough crowd, anyways fun discussion, I'm on to greener pastures.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I've already provided you with a BoatUS link and a UK study which both contradict you. here is one USCG report of many with similar contradictions.

How many do you need ? Google has dozens of them.

Any fuel is dangerous if used incorrectly.

I certainly agree that any fuel can be dangerous. Together with drowning and gas explosions, asphyxiation is the other one of the three leading causes of death on yachts. Do you you have CO alarms? I do.


The USCG study you referenced I know pretty well. It says that there were 18 deaths on "auxiliary sailboats", but does not break them down by cause as far as I can see.

Haven't seen anything which contradicts what I've posted.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Tough crowd, anyways fun discussion, I'm on to greener pastures.

Oh come on, we haven't even started yet on the discussion about which cooking method is a greater contributor to global warming

Dockhead, that is the problem with statistics, they lump everything together and make it difficult to sort out individual cases. But then we haven't seen anything from your side either, other than "some RNLI friend of mine said", and "I posted it elsewhere, somewhere"...

[goat]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed not. Diesel is incredibly safe. It might be dangerous if you drink a couple of liters and poison yourself. Of course, it stanks, but that's not what we're talking about. Alcohol causes fires but extremely rarely anything worse. Kerosene -- see diesel. Lamp oil -- are you serious? Propane on deck -- no problem. Gasoline -- outside of the main hull volume, fine. Electricity -- relatively safe. None of these compares even remotely to LPG.

Obviously not. I've seen the aftermaths of a few boat explosions, but the closest I came to an exploding boat was about thirty years ago delivering two boats from Northern B.C. to Vancouver. The boat we were travelling with caught fire (unknown cause) and was engulfed before he could make a radio call. We motored over and I pulled the lone skipper over the bow rail, we got about thirty yards back when the first fuel tank (gasoline) blew. I don't know if it's considered an explosion or just rapid combustion but I definitely got a shock wave and a face full of hot air as the mushroom cloud went up. We were further back when the second one went. The boat went from motoring to an oily slick in less than 20 minutes. If he'd been by himself there was a zero percent chance of survival. I swore I'd never have gasoline on a boat again. I lied to myself. Hell I even use it in my car.

Interestingly enough, the boat sank before the fire had a chance to heat the propane tank enough to explode.

I had a propane system on my last boat, incredibly convenient. The only things I didn't like about it was needing power to keep the sniffer on and the solenoid open, and the weight of the tanks when packing them to find a refill station. It seems that most gas stations have decided not to fill tanks any more and just offer an exchange system. Cheaper than training the cashier how to fill a tank I guess.

Anyway that's enough B.S. from a goat. Don't take the crap I post as serious, I visit this site for entertainment. Best to block me if you like serious (or useful) posts.

goat