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Old 08-02-2010, 13:23   #1
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Two Questions from a Landlubber...

Hello everyone,

I have been lurking for a while and learning about sailboat stuff as the wife and myself have developed an interest in boating. Up to now my hobby has been flying gliders ( see here) so it is a sort of "sailing"...

I have been looking at lots of sailboats online and and there are two things I have not been able to determine.

1) In general, how fast do sailboats go under under sail? The average club glider clocks along at 40 to 55 knots depending on model and age so although it is a broad range it gives you a feel - the sound barrier is not in danger of being broken. I appreciate that for sail it depends on conditions and the boat in question, but are we talking 2 knots or 20 knots?

2) Many of the boats advertised need internal work to be comfortable. How much of a boat can be pulled apart internally? Are there equivalent of "load bearing walls" in a boat? How important is balance (nobody wants a list). How do you secure things to a GRP hull?

Regards

Brian
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Old 08-02-2010, 13:37   #2
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Obviously there's a lot of variations that come into play in regard to speed, but from what I can tell, I get the feeling that average cruising speed is probably around 6 knots. That's not to say that in good conditions with a catamaran or a larger monohull that you couldn't do 20 knots.

I think the only "load bearing" walls would be the walls that the chainplates are bolted into. The chainplates attach to the wire standing rigging that secures the mast. The chainplates pass through the deck and transfer the tension onto the walls.
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Old 08-02-2010, 13:41   #3
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Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Brian.

Hull speed, sometimes referred to as displacement speed, is a rule of thumb used to provide an approximate maximum efficient speed for a hull, based upon it waterline length (LWL).
It is only an approximation, and only applies where the hull is a fairly traditional displacement design, like sailboats.
In English units, this may be expressed as:
Hull Speed = 1.34 * (LWL)½

See ➥ Hull Speed

Hence, a "typical" private cruising sailboat might have a maximum hull speed of between 6 to 9 knots.
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Old 08-02-2010, 13:50   #4
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Old 08-02-2010, 13:54   #5
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Both your questions are relative. Sail boat speed is determined mainly by the length in a monohull but by design in a multihull. e.g. A 40’ monohull should average around 8 kt. under sail.

As for interior, bearing (walls) bulkheads will multiply the longer the vessel. My 40’er has three, the main one just forward of the mast. Stringers and other such reinforcement come into play as well. Once you start digging into a boat you’ll know where to stop. The bulkheads and stringers are not generally removable w/o cutting fiberglass, providing the vessel is GRP.
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Old 08-02-2010, 14:10   #6
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Originally Posted by mintyspilot View Post
Hello everyone,

I have been lurking for a while and learning about sailboat stuff as the wife and myself have developed an interest in boating. Up to now my hobby has been flying gliders ( see here) so it is a sort of "sailing"...

I have been looking at lots of sailboats online and and there are two things I have not been able to determine.

1) In general, how fast do sailboats go under under sail? The average club glider clocks along at 40 to 55 knots depending on model and age so although it is a broad range it gives you a feel - the sound barrier is not in danger of being broken. I appreciate that for sail it depends on conditions and the boat in question, but are we talking 2 knots or 20 knots?

2) Many of the boats advertised need internal work to be comfortable. How much of a boat can be pulled apart internally? Are there equivalent of "load bearing walls" in a boat? How important is balance (nobody wants a list). How do you secure things to a GRP hull?

Regards

Brian
I'm surprised no one answered your question in a serious way. I understand what you're asking. The answer is -- different boats are different, and waterline length has a direct effect on maximum practical speed, but average cruising monohull sailboats of average size (35 to 40 feet LOA) can make 120 to 150 nautical miles a day in average offshore wind conditions, so a long-term average of 5 or 6 knots. Longer boats and/or racier boats can do a little better than that, but very, very few cruising boats -- probably less than 1% -- can make as much as 200 miles a day repeatedly, even under ideal conditions. That's 8.33 knots, and for a cruising boat that's warp speed as a sustained average speed. Does that answer your question? 99% of all cruising boats will average somewhere between 5 and 8 knots on long passages in good conditions.

Seven or eight knots in a sailboat feels excitingly fast, because you are right there in the water. Some boats can go much faster for briefish periods, faster than their hull speeds, by surfing downwind. I've seen 12 knots in my boat (down wind in a 45-knot gale, with just a scrap of sail up), believe me, it's a thrill. It feels like 150 mph in a car.

Catamarans are somewhat faster on average, especially what concerns bursts of speed for short periods (I've heard about 20 knots), but their daily averages on long passages are often not much more than comparable monohulls. Few of them, also, can make as much as 200 miles a day.

The feel of speed is a thrill, and a big part of the fun of sailing, even though the speeds will sound ridiculously slow to anyone coming from any other sport.

Remember the wind doesn't always blow. It is often too strong, and even worse, can often be too weak. That is why we have engines, but it is much less fun to move under motor, than under sail. So sometimes we drift along at 2 or 3 knots in a weak wind, hoping against hope that it will pick up and resisting the impulse to start up the engine.

Gliding would be a a great background for sailing, I think. It's all energy and aerodynamics, just like sailing.

On your second question -- don't even think about trying to remodel a sailboat. Yes, they have structural walls (they're called bulkheads). But besides that, the interior of a a sailboat is not just drywall and studs like a house. It is incredibly expensive custom made partitions and cabinetry. Just buy a boat which you like the way it is; trust me on that one. You will save a huge amount of time and money.
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Old 08-02-2010, 14:36   #7
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First off - thanks to everyone for responding. The answers are exactly the sort of information I was after. No reason other than curiousity, no one ever seems to mention the sailing speed. I appreciate that it is a generalisation.

GordMay - rules of thumb are fine by me. I use them all the time.

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Seven or eight knots in a sailboat feels excitingly fast, because you are right there in the water. Some boats can go much faster for briefish periods, faster than their hull speeds, by surfing downwind. I've seen 12 knots in my boat (down wind in a 45-knot gale, with just a scrap of sail up), believe me, it's a thrill. It feels like 150 mph in a car.
Sounds like being in the glider. There's nothing fast about 55 knots until the ground is approaching! Floating 2 feet off the grass on a cushion of ground-effect air is absolutely stunning. Speed is a very subjective thing.

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Gliding would be a a great background for sailing, I think. It's all energy and aerodynamics, just like sailing.
That is one of the things that attract me to sail rather then power. Gliding is all about energy, height and weather. The weather determines the energy available which then determines your maximum height and in a glider height is everything. It all comes back to reading the weather and making efficient use of the energy.

Now the big difference is that down there on the wet blue stuff I cannot run out of height. That's a big plus Also there's not much room in a glider. Both me and the missus fancy the challenge of spending a few days away from everything just bumbling along and we would like to be comfortable. We are in our forties, fit and healthy so we do not expect the sheer physical side of it to be a problem.

OK. Maybe we are fooling ourselves but what the heck? If you don't try then you are guaranteed to fail and it is the things you don't do that you regret the most.

So the plan is to spend a few years getting ready, go on some sailing courses, put aside some money and then go out and get a half decent boat.

One thing I can guarantee is that our relatives will want to join in over the summer months and we are not short of in-laws so a boat that sleeps at least 6 is what we want and that seems to dictate a mid-30 footer with a fore and aft cabin and some doss-down space in the middle.

We are not looking at a new boat, that would be silly but we want something halfway nice. Many of the boats we have looked at need internal refurbishment and some of them are very badly laid out and make very poor use of the space available. That is why I was wondering about moving internal partitions about.

I've got a lot to learn, but I have a few years to do it in.
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Old 08-02-2010, 15:20   #8
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I've got a lot to learn, but I have a few years to do it in.

So do we all. Some with fewer years than others, but there's ALWAYS a lot to learn.


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Old 08-02-2010, 22:28   #9
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Originally Posted by mintyspilot View Post
First off - thanks to everyone for responding. The answers are exactly the sort of information I was after. No reason other than curiousity, no one ever seems to mention the sailing speed. I appreciate that it is a generalisation.

GordMay - rules of thumb are fine by me. I use them all the time.



Sounds like being in the glider. There's nothing fast about 55 knots until the ground is approaching! Floating 2 feet off the grass on a cushion of ground-effect air is absolutely stunning. Speed is a very subjective thing.



That is one of the things that attract me to sail rather then power. Gliding is all about energy, height and weather. The weather determines the energy available which then determines your maximum height and in a glider height is everything. It all comes back to reading the weather and making efficient use of the energy.

Now the big difference is that down there on the wet blue stuff I cannot run out of height. That's a big plus Also there's not much room in a glider. Both me and the missus fancy the challenge of spending a few days away from everything just bumbling along and we would like to be comfortable. We are in our forties, fit and healthy so we do not expect the sheer physical side of it to be a problem.

OK. Maybe we are fooling ourselves but what the heck? If you don't try then you are guaranteed to fail and it is the things you don't do that you regret the most.

So the plan is to spend a few years getting ready, go on some sailing courses, put aside some money and then go out and get a half decent boat.

One thing I can guarantee is that our relatives will want to join in over the summer months and we are not short of in-laws so a boat that sleeps at least 6 is what we want and that seems to dictate a mid-30 footer with a fore and aft cabin and some doss-down space in the middle.

We are not looking at a new boat, that would be silly but we want something halfway nice. Many of the boats we have looked at need internal refurbishment and some of them are very badly laid out and make very poor use of the space available. That is why I was wondering about moving internal partitions about.

I've got a lot to learn, but I have a few years to do it in.

By the sound of it, you will like it a lot. Final couple of scraps of advice:

Just get out there. Study later. Tag along with someone -- sailors are always keen to have people aboard, even people they barely know, because you need a few people, even unskilled people, to run the boat, and most boat owners are always short-handed. If you even just hang out in a marina you will get invited to go out. You should not think about buying your own boat until you've spent a fair amount of time on the water.

Once you can sail yourself, then do some bare-boat chartering. This is vastly cheaper than owning your own boat and you get to experiment with different boats without being committed to one.

If you plan on cruising with six people aboard, you may find boats in the mid 30-foot range a little small. Six people start to be marginally comfortable at about 43 feet. Our boat is 54 feet, and it's not oversized for six people (it's just right for that, in my subjective opinion). Cost and maintenance expense go up exponentially with length, though, so it's a balancing act. I thought I had thoroughly researched it, but I have been amazed at the cost of maintaining our boat. Any given system (job, part) is about double the cost of the same system for a 45 foot boat. I'm not exaggerating. But you get about double the interior volume as well, and a bigger boat is faster and more stable. It's a major compromise and balancing act, another reason to spend a good bit of time in boats you didn't buy, before deciding.

Sailing is expensive, in any case. Be warned. Definition of a boat -- a hole in the water you throw money into. Definition of sailing? It's like standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 bills. Definition of cruising? Boat repair in exotic places. All of this is true, but what they don't tell you is what pleasure you get out of spending money on them. But you will want to make some financial provisions before getting into the sport. It's possible but fairly hard to keep up a decent cruising boat on less than a couple of thousand dollars a month, even when you're doing much of the work yourself, and it's very, very easy to spend more. You will not avoid this by buying a clapped-out old boat and attempting to fix it up. On the contrary, that is much more expensive, in almost all cases, than buying one which someone else has spent tons of money fixing up (money they will never get back), or better yet, which is nearly new.

The sailing part is a lot like gliding, as we've established. But cruising has another aspect to it which gliding doesn't -- you don't have to just sail around, you can actually go places. It's a great way to explore new places, see new things. Unfortunately you will be too busy repairing the boat (figure 3 or 4 hours of repair and maintenance for every one hour sailing) and making the next day's passage plan to enjoy any of it, but your family will love it!
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Old 09-02-2010, 02:09   #10
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By the sound of it, you will like it a lot.
I hope so!

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Just get out there. Study later. Tag along with someone -- sailors are always keen to have people aboard, even people they barely know
Sounds like gliding... there is no substitute for practice

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You should not think about buying your own boat until you've spent a fair amount of time on the water.
Agreed.


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If you plan on cruising with six people aboard, you may find boats in the mid 30-foot range a little small.
It woud be crusining with two, sometimes four and ocassionally six.

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Definition of a boat -- a hole in the water you throw money into. ....... It's possible but fairly hard to keep up a decent cruising boat on less than a couple of thousand dollars a month, even when you're doing much of the work yourself
OK - it is time for "Stupid question of the month". What needs fixing to the tune of several thousand dollars per month every month or are you including living costs in that?

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But cruising has another aspect to it which gliding doesn't -- you don't have to just sail around, you can actually go places. It's a great way to explore new places, see new things.
That is the major attraction. Thanks for your help on all this, it has helped fill in some major gaps for me.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:20   #11
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One of the things I like about this forum is we have a wide variety of experience and desires. There is the couple that spends $1,000,000+ and the then one that spends $25000. The single handed sailor trying to circumnavigate on the cheap and the family with all their earnings tied to the adventure of a lifetime. All learning from each other and to some extent sharing a version of the same dream.

To some, this can be a nightmare when people begin pulling at the dream of single handing it around the world in that $15,000 - 40 year old boat, that has been in your neighbors back yard since you were a kid. Is it possible? Hell people have survived months in a lifeboat. Sure "possible" - Likely? Not so much.

Quote:
OK - it is time for "Stupid question of the month". What needs fixing to the tune of several thousand dollars per month every month or are you including living costs in that?
Actually, that is the smart question. "Keep up" was the phrase. Consider your glider experience. There is the cost to purchase one. There is then the things that "must be done" then the things you want done so you can utilize it in the fashion to which you are comfortable. Things that make it "yours." Then their is a cover, a place to park/land it. Fees to have you pulled into the sky. A new paint job, rudder rebuild, flap fixing, insurance, paint, etc.

Then there is first mate fees. (e.g. you may not mind a head that only works a third of the time, the stove that lights spontaneously, that hauling the anchor is a substitute for weight lifting, or the inside looks like a cigar box...but your mate may. (Duct tape is not a window blind and a blanket does not make a bed) Unhappy crew = unhappy sail. Unhappy sail = broken dreams

Read enough around here and you find many a dream smash upon economic reality - and people trying to help us avoid the same course. Boats are not like cars or houses. Another $10,000 does not make an issue go away, it merely replaces it with a different (and possibly more expensive) one.

It may not cost you thousands "each" month, but you will want that money put somewhere for the time it costs you several "this" month. Can you live on a few dollars a day? Maybe, but it is a spartan existence or a significant trade off. Lin & Larry Pardey have been sailing for 45+ years without an engine and reading their books you can see the logic as well as the savings. Having said that, it is a trade off, I am not yet ready to make. You will find the same is true for each of us on different things. You will also find those things everyone agrees are essential.

Is a few thousand a month high? It is similar to the thought that 25% of the boat's cost should be set aside for immediate repairs, upgrades and preparation. (e.g. $100,000 boat means you need $1250,000) It may be high, but underestimating the costs (both money and time) is how boats end up in yards for years until they finally get sold at a bargain.

Which is again why I like this forum. You will find people who can tell you how to make that left-handed-widget and save $700 and as many who will tell you to just suck it up and buy it. But all agree that sailing is the greatest lifestyle for people - if you can face the realities of it.

Welcome aboard.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:39   #12
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I'd love to do a hearty "second" on the "get out there and try it" comment, especially as regards internal boat layout. Space is used differently on a boat. It's not a house, or even a camper. Even when moored, its a moving object, and a cabin layout that may seem 'cramped' on first viewing will seem protective, stable, and downright cozy when the weather hits. Borrow or rent a boat and spend a couple of weekends gunkholing to get a feel of the thing.

And stay tuned to this site. I've never met a more irritatingly knowledgeable group of folks
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Old 12-02-2010, 13:49   #13
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I'd love to do a hearty "second" on the "get out there and try it"
Oh I shall - have no fear. I intend to start with an RYA course at a local marina. I might as well learn to do it right. It is a 5 day course.

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.... as regards internal boat layout. Space is used differently on a boat. It's not a house, or even a camper. Even when moored, its a moving object, and a cabin layout that may seem 'cramped' on first viewing will seem protective, stable, and downright cozy when the weather hits.
I can see how that would work. Some of these do look very nice, but it is already obvious that I will not be buying a new boat and that means doing a lot of fixing up internally to offset years of wear and tear.

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And stay tuned to this site. I've never met a more irritatingly knowledgeable group of folks
Sounds good. They have already been a great help to me and I am learning lots and having lots of other information put in a useful context.

It's a fantastic website and I hope I can contribute something back.

Cheers!
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Old 12-02-2010, 14:38   #14
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Another perspective, we've travelled 1000 mi in last two months, mostly 50 to 200 mi hops. Average sog 4.5 kts. 4 nights in marinas(cheap ones). Spent around $600 all inclusive. We've been lucky and had no repairs to speak of except 2 broken stanchions when a boat broke loose from mooring and collided with us. If we spent $2500 in a month it would be from major maintenance. Last $2500 month was over a year ago when windlass failed. We travel year round and live aboard fulltime. Sailing a boat is the easy part, docking, anchoring and maintenance require more experience.
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Old 13-02-2010, 09:05   #15
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If your buying fibre glass forget about redesigning the interior... the majority of mass produced boats have an internal moulded furniture/floor/bulkheads that drop in and are bonded to the hull in such a way as to stiffen the hull in carefully measured spots... start cutting away sections and you'll weaken the overall structure and possibly also succeed in making the boat un-insurable and worse still unsaleable at some future time...
If you want a boat to play around with internally look at the bigger GRP racing yachts.. remember they're built to cope with stresses far greater than your ever likely to to put them to....they're generally very open plan with pipe cots etc and you can play around in there 'tabbing" in half bulkheads and cupboards etc... or look at Wood or Steel which are built very differently..... therefore easier to open up or section off.
Costs...
Bought a 2001 Beneteau 331 boat in 07 for $60,000, then spent $10,000 in the next month on a Stainless Solar/Wind gen/Dinghy Davit Arch, and the Solar Panels, Wind Gen, Dinghy and Outboard etc;.... also new Main and Genoa as back up/ posh day cruising..
Then nothing except anti foul, winch grease and fuel for the next 2yrs...
Rigging should be replaced if 10yrs or older.. insurance demands it and you'll sleep happier.. haul out at least every 18mths... unless you can find a "Drying wall' to do your bottom work...
But while cruising/living on board its cheaper to maintain than if shes sitting in a Marina weeks on end unattended... a 3hrs a day maintenance schedule dedicated to specific areas in rotation will keep her gleaming and fully functional... forget the "It works so why fix it" attitude... a winch that works great one day can seize solid with salt deposit the next day just when you really need it..
"Sods Law"... when taking it apart to clean and grease would have taken just 1/2 an hour... or 6 winches in a morning... and so on... blah, blah, blah....
Have a "POT" set aside for the boat... living costs are seperate.. and don't raid the interest it makes just sitting in the bank.. top up whenever its dipped into... get a job short term where ever you happen to be if necessary to do this and you'll be fine...
Concentrate on "Essentials" and leave the fancy chart plotter/radar etc till further down the line.. THEY'RE NOT vital to safe cruising..... YOU and a SOUND BOAT are.... if the boat you buy needs re rigging consider going for Norseman... initially more expensive but next time you can do it yourself one stay at a time... and at sea if necessary should one 'Pop'... You save on hiring a rigger to swage and fit new ones... just buy the right Guage wire... cutters you should have anyway and 'Bobs your Uncle'....
Ok... fingers knackered now so I'll shut up....
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