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Old 31-07-2015, 08:12   #31
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

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It would be nice, but it would interfere with the wind vane">Aries wind vane.



I have considered getting a BIG inner tube and having the ladder go down into the center of that.

Maybe you can get one made up that can work with your wind vane? Perhaps incorporating the mounting into the swim platform


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Old 31-07-2015, 08:17   #32
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

Regarding boarding and using a cheap or typical "swim ladder": I saw an interesting and informative post by CarstenB in another thread today. Worth reading.

Main points:
1. Man goes overboard in heavy weather
2. Wife begins MOB recovery, turns boat, gets man to side of boat.
3. Man attempts to board the boat (from water) using swim ladder
4. Step on swim ladder breaks, he goes back into the water
5. Man makes another attempt to use swim ladder, another step breaks, he goes back in water.
6. Man is exhausted, drowns. Wife cannot lift him or further help him.

Sad story.

In the thread linked below, look for post #135.

MOB Procedures
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It is stories like this and others I have heard/read over the years that convinces me that using typical "lightweight" and flimsy or "rope" ladders in extreme circumstances (MOB or during rocking, heaving, boat in swells) is foolish.

They may be OK for lakes, or when the boat is anchored and there is no wave or swell or for kids who weigh little and are limber. But when thinking of a typical middle aged, heavy, and likely not in the best of shape/condition/strength and possibly older sailors (or passengers) I think making it as easy as possible and as secure as possible (and able to take 250# of weight) is smarter than depending upon a small/lightweight/short typical swim ladder.

If I had a 40 foot or larger steel or fiberglass or wood boat I would make the mounts for a good strong and easy to climb ladder (made of aluminum or stainless).
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Old 31-07-2015, 12:07   #33
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

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Here is their website. They just confirmed they will not be producing boat ladders. Presumably they will do dock ladders.

FWIW, I have a 5 step on the small boat. Wonderful.

I just ordered the 7 step. The last thing I need right now, in prepping for retirement and get-away, is one more project.


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I agree 100% with steady hand. There's no way in the world that ladder is going to work in an ocean setting. For the money you will save on that website ladder, you will end up spending 100 times as much on the injury that you will incure someday using it. I would never trust it on our boat knowing how much wave/swell action is involved out here.

I was trying to get into my RIB in Guernsey a couple of years back standing on the sugar scoop swim platform waiting for just the right moment to climb across into the RIB. A swell passed by and sunk the stern of our 53ft boat so that the water came up over my knees and up to my waist in just half a second. The forces involved are more than just the weight of the individual using the ladder. Many times, the dinghy and stern are moving up and down (think moving target) by four feet or more. The ocean forces can be very dynamic.

That thing on the website will snap in two.... IMHO.
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Old 31-07-2015, 13:36   #34
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

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I agree 100% with steady hand. There's no way in the world that ladder is going to work in an ocean setting. For the money you will save on that website ladder, you will end up spending 100 times as much on the injury that you will incure someday using it. I would never trust it on our boat knowing how much wave/swell action is involved out here.

I was trying to get into my RIB in Guernsey a couple of years back standing on the sugar scoop swim platform waiting for just the right moment to climb across into the RIB. A swell passed by and sunk the stern of our 53ft boat so that the water came up over my knees and up to my waist in just half a second. The forces involved are more than just the weight of the individual using the ladder. Many times, the dinghy and stern are moving up and down (think moving target) by four feet or more. The ocean forces can be very dynamic.

That thing on the website will snap in two.... IMHO.
Well, I was contemplating using it amid ship. And I don't think it would snap. But it is a mute point, sold already. Damn, I really liked the stowable size.

So I'm back to something else, amid ship.

I've gotten into a few "dive" boats over the transom, I'll skip that experience if I can.
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Old 31-07-2015, 15:01   #35
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

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Well, I was contemplating using it amid ship. And I don't think it would snap. But it is a mute point, sold already. Damn, I really liked the stowable size.

So I'm back to something else, amid ship.

I've gotten into a few "dive" boats over the transom, I'll skip that experience if I can.
If the stern is an issue for you the amid ship experience will be even worse. The rolling action in an ocean anchorage is more intense amid ship. You'll even find yourself leaning backwards when the boat rolls towards you whilst trying to climb the ladder.

Good luck.
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Old 31-07-2015, 15:07   #36
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

Looking at your boat, I think you might consider a horizontally stowed ladder amidships. A swivel on the aft upright and hook on the forward with rounded stand offs.

It could hang at the toe rail and be deployable from the water.




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Old 31-07-2015, 15:07   #37
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

I'd love to get one of these. I wonder how hard it would be to get them deploy-able from the water.

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Old 31-07-2015, 15:23   #38
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

One of the many influences that caused me to build our permanent stern ladder was the prevalence of such setups on the more serious boats around me. Just walking around our club I saw boat after boat with some kind of semi permanent stern ladder, ranging from simple two steps below the water affairs to steps built into the hull and then the full production like ours.

I look at the OPs boat and I see a dozen ways of mounting a stern ladder and I am left wondering what I am missing in the apparent reluctance to even consider the idea. I would understand if the boat was some kind of pretty little day racer, but it is a cruising boat, and to me that means function before form. That means robust, reliable safety mechanisms even if they look a little bit un-sexy.

Two days with the mig welder and I'd feel safe as houses on that boat. I'd even buy a new rail mounted hook on ladder as an option for midships because I am a belts and braces kind of guy.

I wish I knew what I have missed....

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Old 31-07-2015, 15:32   #39
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

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Originally Posted by GILow View Post
One of the many influences that caused me to build our permanent stern ladder was the prevalence of such setups on the more serious boats around me. Just walking around our club I saw boat after boat with some kind of semi permanent stern ladder, ranging from simple two steps below the water affairs to steps built into the hull and then the full production like ours.

I look at the OPs boat and I see a dozen ways of mounting a stern ladder and I am left wondering what I am missing in the apparent reluctance to even consider the idea. I would understand if the boat was some kind of pretty little day racer, but it is a cruising boat, and to me that means function before form. That means robust, reliable safety mechanisms even if they look a little bit un-sexy.

Two days with the mig welder and I'd feel safe as houses on that boat. I'd even buy a new rail mounted hook on ladder as an option for midships because I am a belts and braces kind of guy.

I wish I knew what I have missed....

Matt


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If I had a metal boat with suitable stern, I would add a nice boarding ladder and swim platform there.
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Old 31-07-2015, 15:43   #40
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

Please excuse crude dwg.

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Old 31-07-2015, 17:23   #41
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

Aft view.....Aries is not mounted.
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Old 31-07-2015, 17:45   #42
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

Well, if it were my boat:

a) I'd be pretty darn pleased.
b) I'd put the ladder where I have put in on my current boat.

There's enough return to the centreline of the boat to make it reasonably safe from being wiped off on docks (one of the many advantages of a canoe stern, which makes up for the many disadvantages, never worked out if there were more pros or cons).

I'd even make the same simple setup with permanent stand-off feet as low as I could probably just above the second chine.

I'd consider the merits of rejigging the horizontal braces on that rear tower assembly where the outboard currently hangs to make it practical to hang the ladder as close to the stern as possible, stepping aboard between the legs, and use the legs of the tower as part of the handhold assembly when climbing aboard. Otherwise, to my mind, the ladder would have to come too far forward to clear the tower and would start to be a concern when coming alongside docks and things. As they say YMMV.

I'd keep a good quality hook-on ladder on board for those times when the wave motion at anchor made arriving by the stern impractical and I'd rest just that much easier knowing there was always a ladder on hand should the worst occur.

Failing all this, I'd favour either a ladder that pivots much like CapEricT3's lovely artwork (how did he get those lovely curves?) , but I would pivot it from the toe rail, just an inch forward of the tower's front leg, swinging up towards the aft of the boat and trailing a line with a handle to release it from within the water. The advantage of the pivot would be that the ladder could be pretty well flush with the side of the hull in the stowed position, but without knowing how the boat behaves when coming alongside I would be hard pressed to know if the added complexity was worth the sleeker profile of the ladder.

Alternatively I'd just climb aboard using the sheet ice as a foot hold, much like the ducks.

That looks awfully cold to me.

Matt
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Old 31-07-2015, 19:04   #43
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

Yeah, cold. We live aboard every other week, all winter long. Espar heater does wonders. That and we agree to not argue below 50F. There was an exceptionally low tide when I took the photo and she was sitting on the bottom a bit, so her bum is a bit higher than normal.

The dumb thing is, the current ladder is about where yours is. That orangish lump on the port side of the transom is an old ladder I picked up in a consignment shop. It works like a pantograph and extends downward.

Ok in a pinch and for what I paid. Not what I need.

Despite what it looks like in the photo I try to keep the aft deck fairly clear for clean airflow across the vane.

I may have enough space to mount something without fouling the Aries oar. I still think coming aboard amid ship would be less dangerous. Also my sense is my wife will be more comfortable amid ship. That whole think about sliding over vs stepping down. Just watching her try to get into the kayak from the floating dock is what brought this whole issue to a head. She will improve with practice, if she doesn't freak in the interim.

This boat has a permanently fixed tiller in addition to a wheel. The Aries drives the tiller. So getting to the transom involves stepping over the vane lines. Even though they will be dropped when not sailing it gets pretty busy back there.

I don't have rails across the back of the boat, instead I have two runs of SS chain that I can drop making it more like a really big gate. When working back there I clip into the arch, overhead, making it pretty safe.

On the other hand I do have a good place to stow the ladder on the arch. Lay it flat across up high. I keep my oars and other stuff there now. It's above the vane.
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Old 31-07-2015, 19:08   #44
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

I can't see how a ladder attached to the side of the boat would interfere with the airflow on the windvane?


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Old 31-07-2015, 19:12   #45
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Re: The man/water interface...swim ladders

BTW, the current stern ladder on your boat looks about as good as my original ladder so I can see why you are planning on an upgrade. Whatever you do it should be an improvement. It was only my Scottish ancestry that prevented me from tossing our old ladder when I built the new one.


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