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**boatman61** · 29-05-2013, 05:17

Spotted this article and having experienced and practiced this lifestyle personally I wondered how wide spread this attitude is in the sailing community.. or is it restricted to a certain 'style' of travelling sailor.. free tow's.. help with engines.. or just using fellow cruisers for work/repairs to your boat (Getting more difficult as more yards refuse owners/non approved contractors working on their own/others boats)
How lessons I learnt from the Amish saved me £550 in a year - Yahoo! Finance UK
I do know there's kindred spirits on CF.. just curious how wide spread kindness to strangers is in our lifestyle... in real life.
Apart from the sense of personal satisfaction one derives from bailing someone out... this helpful approach can extend tight budgets that essential touch further...

MarkJ · 29-05-2013, 05:45

Well the load of crap in that article is the person gave a "few hours of their time" to get fed or whatever. Bludgers don't give time and work hard they just expect the hand-outs.

The cheapest anyone has offered to work on my boat is $30 per hour. Geeze at $30 per hour they want to be the worlds fastest cleaner, polisher etc. even the cruiser/mechanics ask for that rate... Ok it's cheaper than the $80 per hour asked by the on shore marine mechanics, but the $80 job comes from qualified people with workshop support etc...

I would have crew on board if they wanted a bit of a holiday, or learn about sailing etc if they wanted to contribute with work (and they pay their food)... And I have had an ad on a website suggesting two hours per day for the cruise... And I haven't had one response. So what do people want? A free jaunt where they pluck someone else's previous hard work that's enabled them to buy a boat.

Beggars are the same in any city: they want but they won't give. Folks who give em money are morons.

**boatman61** · 29-05-2013, 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Well the load of crap in that article is the person gave a "few hours of their time" to get fed or whatever. Bludgers don't give time and work hard they just expect the hand-outs.

The cheapest anyone has offered to work on my boat is $30 per hour. Geeze at $30 per hour they want to be the worlds fastest cleaner, polisher etc. even the cruiser/mechanics ask for that rate... Ok it's cheaper than the $80 per hour asked by the on shore marine mechanics, but the $80 job comes from qualified people with workshop support etc...

I would have crew on board if they wanted a bit of a holiday, or learn about sailing etc if they wanted to contribute with work (and they pay their food)... And I have had an ad on a website suggesting two hours per day for the cruise... And I haven't had one response. So what do people want? A free jaunt where they pluck someone else's previous hard work that's enabled them to buy a boat.

Beggars are the same in any city: they want but they won't give. Folks who give em money are morons.

Mark... your missing the 'Spirit'...
For example... we bump into each other at the 'Soggy Dollar' and you mention a problem.. I pop over.. have a look and resolve the problem.. say good night and head for home.. does that make you a beggar..?
Let me give a few examples of what I mean..
I sail into Horta.. no elec's as the motor died 1000 miles out after fuel clogged all spare filters.. sat in Peters Bar one evening chatting to folk when another 'solo' said he'd pop over next day.. showed me how to set up emergency tank and spent most of the day chewing the fat... no charge.. just happy to chat and have a couple of beers..
Sailing along S Majorca for Palma, wind died so motor on.. later came across a drifting boat who's engine had seized... I towed them 15 miles in the opposite direction.. no charge..
I was in no hurry and it was something to do... never saw them again.. but hopefully they 'passed it on'...

It was the 'Spirit of the Amish' I was referring to... not the hope of financial reward/benefits so much.. just doing/giving because you can and you enjoy it.. the thoughts of reward well over some distant horizon

MarkJ · 29-05-2013, 06:29

Hi Phil,

I find your examples completely different to the Amish article where the journalist was exchanging work for a bit of work.

Your examples are the "what goes round comes around" situation in cruising where any cruiser will help anyone else as much as they can because sometime in the future they will be in need of help.
I help as much as I can... And I am in positive territory for Karma points ( but only just!) as does everyone else. And of course there's beers and dinner on board to celebrate fixing the damn thing.

But people working for barter does not happen. Look at all those threads about making a living whilst cruising. Note NONE of them say they will work for dinner or barter etc... They all want cold hard cash.

And crews want a flat deck to catch a tan and wear Bolles while drinking Bolli!

If people who want to crew wanted to work then all the boats cruisng the Carib, or other parts of the world, would be seriously looking at them!

I sure would!

Mark

Mike OReilly · 29-05-2013, 06:48

Barter as a form of economic activity has been around a lot longer than the currency economy. It's just another way of exchanging one thing or service for another. As the basis for an economy, it is a far more direct method than using pieces of paper or chunks of rare metals as mediators. It's just not as versatile. It works well in small, connected communities, which is why barter is a natural choice small, like-minded groups like cruisers and sailors.

I "barter" services all the time at my DIY yacht club. It's not formal and it's not measured. My neighbour helps me launch my boat and step my mast (everything is done by members here), I help her with her electrical problems. The club diesel guru helps me with my engine, I help him winterize his plumbing. My neighbour's fresh water pump dies, I give him one I'm not using. He'll get me back (or someone else). It's how things get done.

It's not about being a beggar (that is different), it's just being part of a community.

Mark, as Phil says, I think you're missing the point ... or perhaps you're reading a different article.

**boatman61** · 29-05-2013, 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Barter as a form of economic activity has been around a lot longer than the currency economy. It's just another way of exchanging one thing or service for another. As the basis for an economy, it is a far more direct method than using pieces of paper or chunks of rare metals as mediators. It's just not as versatile. It works well in small, connected communities, which is why barter is a natural choice small, like-minded groups like cruisers and sailors.

I "barter" services all the time at my DIY yacht club. It's not formal and it's not measured. My neighbour helps me launch my boat and step my mast (everything is done by members here), I help her with her electrical problems. The club diesel guru helps me with my engine, I help him winterize his plumbing. My neighbour's fresh water pump dies, I give him one I'm not using. He'll get me back (or someone else). It's how things get done.

It's not about being a beggar (that is different), it's just being part of a community.

Mark, as Phil says, I think you're missing the point ... or perhaps you're reading a different article.

He's reading the same article... just forgot to take out the 'Money' factor...
I've found the 'best' help has often come from those 'not advertising services'... and nothing asked in return... with offers accepted or.. sometimes refused.. sometimes a simple thumbed lift in a dinghy to shore is a god send... it all counts.. and a meal or a couple of beers in return brings new gifts... local knowledge.. tall tales and maybe a new friend... Priceless

What use is a water taxi if you've not yet cleared in and have no local currency.

MarkJ · 29-05-2013, 07:46

Maybe I was reading some other article...
Anyway, trying to tie it back to cruising doesn't work. As you have both said its about small communities. The cruising community is really quite large and geographically variable. It moves on a day to day basis. Even here in Grenada for the hurricane season I on only here for five months so the barter hours I would work for someone may not be reciprocated by the time I leave..

The Tax Office in Australia never had a problem with barter. Why not? Because they knew it wouldn't work. If it does so its on such a small, isolated scale that its really not taxable. So they just let it go.

If the tax office know something then I am sticking to them! barter doesn't work. Yes exceptions... But they prove the rule... The exception that everyone has a subsistence farm etc. but then everyone grows eggs, tomatoes at the same time of year so you must grow or barter some,thing different. Amish may need all the other farms to hel at harvest or shed building but that's only because they use horses and no nails! On a normal farm a hundred relatives milling around the paddock would just stop any work being done by the John Deere! And then there's pre-fabricated sheds where the installer will pour the concrete in one day, then come back a week later for 1 day and erect the factory made shed. No need to women cooking in relays to feed the fat baldy bearded buggers!

Same as on boats. Yes when there is a problem cruisers will come flocking. But that's not barter, its the Karma circle. But try bartering goods and services around the cruisers.... What services? I cut your hair badly and you poison me at dinner?

In your yacht club at home it may be different.... But we are not home and the yacht club is thousands of miles away.

janice142 · 29-05-2013, 12:18

Rather than bartering per se, I see a lot of old-fashioned swapping. A fellow I met in a boatyard mentioned he needed hinges and he had some LED bulbs and sockets. We swapped and I suspect we both think we got the better deal -- and we probably did.

I seldom see "you give me this and I will do that"
What I do see is "sure I'll help" and "would you like?" or, a price given in cash and trade offered instead of the money.

Here in Carrabelle I'm gathering the stuff I'll need to mount my new solar panels. A fellow offered to help me mount them -- he didn't say "if you give me XYZ, I will help" but of course he is a cruiser too...........

sailcruiser · 29-05-2013, 13:56

The title of this thread had me do a double take. I had to laugh at the thought of a boat load of Amish sailing. I did pass a strange sight a few summers ago. We were motoring in dead calm HOT conditions with nothing to see for hours. All of a sudden we see boats so tightly packed you could just about step between them. On these 5 or so boats were dozens of Amish men shoulder to shoulder fishing with one oddball boat captain per boat.

On the Amish lifestyle and ways yes they are like this *amongst themselves*. If you aren't Amish they aren't like this. Don't get me wrong they are nice people as a whole but work the system well. I've given but never asked, been offered, or received anything in return.

I am this way with my neighbors, family and fellow boaters. I have been taken advantage of too many times to count but I have to look at myself in the mirror and decide who I want to be and how I want to act. I can't do the 'me me me' mentality so I resigned myself to accepting some people will use me as a door mat but at the end of the day I can sleep at night.

Maybe this is why the Amish at least around me are focused within there communities. Around here there are Old Order, New Order, and Schwartzentruber (spelling guessed!) as well as similar conservative Mennonites. I will never get used to see a horse and buggy driven by someone playing on an iPhone and it has become strangely common.
SC

**boatman61** · 29-05-2013, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Hi Phil,

I find your examples completely different to the Amish article where the journalist was exchanging work for a bit of work.

Your examples are the "what goes round comes around" situation in cruising where any cruiser will help anyone else as much as they can because sometime in the future they will be in need of help.
I help as much as I can... And I am in positive territory for Karma points ( but only just!) as does everyone else. And of course there's beers and dinner on board to celebrate fixing the damn thing.

But people working for barter does not happen. Look at all those threads about making a living whilst cruising. Note NONE of them say they will work for dinner or barter etc... They all want cold hard cash.

And crews want a flat deck to catch a tan and wear Bolles while drinking Bolli!

If people who want to crew wanted to work then all the boats cruisng the Carib, or other parts of the world, would be seriously looking at them!

I sure would!

Mark

Sorry mate... I'd been watching a report on the Australian Jesus and Mary Magdalene... a moment of inspired posting madness...