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Old 25-09-2014, 15:08   #16
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Re: Storing fuel for long crossing

Running the engine to generate won't use much.
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:00   #17
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Re: Storing fuel for long crossing

And, if a bladder leaks on deck you will never be able to safely walk on that deck again. Diesel is slippery and pervasive. Go with jerry jugs. And, tie each one on to the backing board separately so when it's dark o'clock you don't have to untie and retie any extra jugs. Fair winds, Hannah
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:34   #18
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Storing fuel for long crossing

Well for 30 gls a bladder would be silly, but Diesel will wash off, I'd bet your chance of a spill is higher with individual cans than a bladder, but your chance of losing all your fuel if you have a leak is of course much higher with a bladder as all your eggs are in one basket.
My Lazerette could easily carry at least ten Jerry jugs too, but I just don't like the idea of fuel being in there, eventually anything that can happen, will
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:42   #19
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Re: Storing fuel for long crossing

Mark J is right, and he's had that experience.

The issue is that the stanchions aren't made for the kind of loads that a wave hitting lashed on cans will do. There have been some ideas I've seen where the attachment point is not the stanchions but the coachroof. I don't remember the details, though, sorry.

The REAL question would be: How much fuel those folks who brought a gazillion extra gallons did they have left when they arrived?

Safe journey, enjoy.
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Old 25-09-2014, 18:49   #20
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Re: Storing fuel for long crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Tying fuel cans to the deck will change the stability of the boat. It may roll a lot more and make the ride more uncomfortable. You will have following seas and follwoing winds most of the way, which like to roll the boat from side to side.

We ran our engines for about 24 hours during the ARC2012 and could have done with much less. At the end some of the crew had no patience and wanted to keep the boat speed above 7 knots at ALL times.

As a backup I would consider a Honda 2000i generator. You plug it into the shore power and charge with your shore charger. I hope you have a beefy one.
You would rely on your alternator and solar only. Friends of mine loast their generator and two alternators during the same crossing. They went black-ship for 10 days. They relied on a handheld GPS for once a day location update.
I think the Honda genset is a really good idea for a boat without a diesel genset. The 1000i or 100i would be even better, as you don't need to produce a large current. And a few jugs of petrol. This will give you completely independent and completely redundant charging ability, and it will probably consume considerably less fuel per unit of power produced than running your main engine just to charge batts -- that is, at a time when you don't need propulsion. This needs to be matched with either a mains charger which allows you to control the input current (Mastervolt or Victron), OR a mains charger which is sized to draw about 750 watts (and not much more or much less) at full output. This is important, because the little Hondas are not tolerant of being overloaded, are not happy being run right at full rated power, and on the other hand, running them under 30% or 40% load is not efficient.

Then calculate how many hours of charging a day you will need and how much fuel will be consumed, and carry that much fuel, and you are totally covered for electrical power. The 1000i only use about 0.6 liters/hour at full rated power, so 3 hours a day x 21 days would only require 40 liters of fuel -- two jugs. Assuming your power consumption can be covered with about 2kWH per day of charging as a rough guess (that's about half of what we use on our much bigger boat). It would probably be overkill to take even that much fuel since you have solar; I guess one jug of fuel would do it.

A reliable diesel genset would be generally better, but you just can't beat the Honda gennie for an extremely cheap, effective, simple, reliable, no-hassle, no-installation solution to the problem.

Be careful with carbon monoxide -- read up on the dangers. And carry a comprehensive spares kit for the Honda.

Also, if your alternator is an automotive type -- as delivered with your main engine, as opposed to a heavy duty school bus type alternator -- keep in mind that it is not designed for bulk power production, and my self-destruct with heavy usage. So I would carry a complete spare alternator plus spares kit including brushes, and a comprehensive electrical tool kit. Or else change over to or add as a second alternator a real heavy duty unit.


As to carrying spare diesel -- as a rule of thumb, on a passage like this (trade winds) where you would not expect to be doing much motoring, I would think four days, more or less, of non-stop motoring endurance, at your best economy speed (so very slow), should be plenty. How much does your normal tank hold? I don't think most boats will need a whole lot of supplemental fuel for the ARC if you're not powering a diesel generator. For me, that's 4 liters/hour x 96 hours or about 400 liters; my tank holds 682, so I actually have about 6 days of endurance, not counting genset consumption (about 6 liters a day). I bet you can ghost along at 2 liters an hour in that boat in a dead calm, so 200 liters might be enough.

I imagine your main tank holds at least that much, so I would think that a few jugs of spare diesel, which unlike jugs of petrol you can simply carry in the lazarette, will be fine, as an emergency reserve. No need to clutter up the deck or mess with bladders. You are a sail boat, after all.
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Old 25-09-2014, 19:09   #21
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

First of all you have a sailboat, not a motor boat. You will be sailing in the tradewinds, and tons of extra fuel is going to slow you down.

Worst case, if you have to motor 4 hours per day to keep the batteries up, you will use about 80 liters, or about half you tank. If you have to motorsail, that is going to burn up another 50-60 liters each 24 hr.

Given your tank size, I'd lash 5 jerry jugs (about 100 liters extra) in the cockpit. Bring some hose to transfer the fuel to the tank without spilling. The jugs can go in the laz when empty. A bladder brings the problem of how to transfer the fuel in to and out of the bladder, whereas the jerry jugs are portable.

If there is no wind at the start, you can always motorsail to the Cape Verdes and refuel there--the wind is usually more consistent further south.
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Old 25-09-2014, 19:15   #22
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Hi , lve had a turtle Pac Bow bladder for several years . l motor a lot in SE Asia. I've just taken the bladder out . l have found that they weep a little at compression Joints . Totally over diesel smell . It's recommended you take bladder out periodically and tighten the the filler coupling etc AS the material compressors and joint leaks , that's great but do you really want to be pulling a smelly bladder out regularly? Not for me . And this is a expensive top quality bladder.
cheers Dale.
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Old 25-09-2014, 19:29   #23
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

I would suggest 8 20l cans in cockpit lockers if room, otherwise on deck tied to lifelines, four each side thereby doubling motoring hours. If on deck get some hose that will reach to main fuel tank deck fill from most remote fuel can. Put hose in can right to bottom, use rag to seal (sort off) leaving enough room to blow into can forcing fuel to gravity into main fuel tank. Sounds sort of gross, works great! Fuel can does not have to move once affixed to lifelines. Everytime you use 20l from main tank replace fuel , alternating port to starboard. If fuel cans in cockpit locker shorter length of hose will suffise. No need to lift cans, (other than out of locker) pour and make mess this way. I use cheap garden hose (the stiff stuff). Even in rough weather if you can crawl to cans you can transfer fuel without mess.

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Old 25-09-2014, 19:37   #24
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

Google SUPER SIPHON. No need to get gross about it...
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Old 25-09-2014, 19:51   #25
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

Supersiphon does work well but doesn't come with long enough hose generally. Remember you blow with my system, not suck. (Oh oh what have I started!) Just prepare ahead and don't be trying to pour on a moving plarform.

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Old 25-09-2014, 20:27   #26
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

If you decide to go with a bladder, these guys make really good ones in all sorts of shapes and sizes.
Aero Tec Laboratories - Aero Tec Labs - Aerotech - ATL - Aerotec - AeroTech Labs, Fuel Cells_Cell, Bladders_Bladder, Bladder Tanks_Tank, Potable Water Bladders, Pillow Tanks_Tank_Containment, Portable Tanks_Tank, Liquid Storage, Collapsible Tanks_Tan
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Old 25-09-2014, 20:51   #27
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
. . . Given your tank size, I'd lash 5 jerry jugs (about 100 liters extra) in the cockpit. Bring some hose to transfer the fuel to the tank without spilling. The jugs can go in the laz when empty. . .
And I thought I was the only person who called the lazarette "the laz"!

But you can also put the full jugs in the laz. Diesel fuel does not present an explosion hazard like petrol does. I sure wouldn't want them in my cockpit, although the cockpit is certainly better than the deck, in terms of windage and so forth.
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Old 26-09-2014, 10:13   #28
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

We crossed the Atlantic this summer on our Westerly 36' with a 35 gal fuel tank, a 28HP Volvo and four 5 gal plastic cans in the laz.
In the two month passage we motored during calms, refueled in Bermuda and the Azores and kept our main tank always more than 50% filled using only 2 of our cans during the whole passage.
Bottom line: Based on my experience, with your boat and your size engine, unless you decide to sail in the "horse latitudes" you should have enough fuel to sail everywhere with peace of mind with the same set up. And, if your laz is big enough, I would suggest that fuel cans are much better in the laz. than on deck.
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Old 26-09-2014, 10:27   #29
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

Informative thread, thanks. My boat is similar to Simon's in size and size of fuel tank and I have been puzzling about this issue.


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Old 26-09-2014, 11:59   #30
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Re: Storing Fuel for Long Crossing

have made a few long passages with 4-6 gerry cans usually lashed in the cockpit. Have never had to use them to get through a passage. They were handy to replenish the boats tank at the usual out of the way source of fuel at destination but have never needed them during the passage. Most common cruising routes are based on the trade winds which are called that because they have an uncommon reliability for both velocity and direction. If you are one of those people that has to turn the engine on anytime you can't sail at hull speed, a fuel bladder might make sense. If your route will have the predicted wind on one tack, the stored fuel can be set up to act as uncomplaining rail meat.

One of the few passages where huge fuel capacity would be needed is Hawaii to the mainland. One scenario is to sail north from the Islands into the Pacific High, then turn right and power through the high till picking up wind on the other side. That could require powering for a week, more or less, so lots off fuel burned. The traditional route is to sail around the high which takes longer but burns almost no fuel. Also, the Suez Canal approach is a notorious light wind and/or wind on the nose passage.
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