Size is important ....or is it?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

They are simply among the less than handful of great sailors who have written about everything one needs to know about sailing.

Among others: The Hiscocks, Jimmy Cornell, Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger, John Letcher and Richard Henderson.

They were the first to coin the phrase "Go small, go now," but they wrote some very helpful sailing books about storm tactics, feeding crew, and sailing among other lands that apply to every kind and size of sailboat. They got around.

Google is your friend when you ask a question like this.

I'm sure others can chime in with some other great writers.

No need for you two to reinvent the wheel. Not these days.

While you're at it (for books) Sailing for Dummies is quite a good read, too. 'Specially since you're just starting out.

Stu,

Seriously, does the following paragraph from the Pardey's website really sound like it contains useful information for someone like the OP with a much higher budget?

From the website:

"We have no installed head due to our dislike of holding tanks, so we have made an enclosure with seat and lid for a bucket and have come up with solutions that we feel work well. Offshore, we use the bucket-and-chuck-it system. Near shore or in enclosed anchorages, we use Wag Bags in the bucket. These fully biodegradable bags-familiar to dog and cat owners-contain special powder (called Pooh-Powder) that turns urine into a gel and deodorizes the waste. The special enzymes in the gel also kill bacteria and promote the breakdown of waste and bags. After using the bag (one bag can be used five or six times), we simply seal it into the separate biodegradable pouch supplied with each kit. Then it can be deposited in the trash for disposal at landfills. In Peru, where these bags are required for anyone hiking the Inca Trail, the waste product is allowed to break down in compost heaps; within four months, the compost can be used safely for gardening."

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Badsanta

I don't know why the op is even asking here. He doesn't need any advice and knows what they want and can afford it. The only reason to post is to say they are extremely wealthy or just trolling. Either way I'm not impressed. Good on them if they have the money, but its not my buisness. On the internet we are what we want to be.

Is the concept that some folks using this website strive for something more substantial than fixing up the latest beater boat sinking down at the local marina, that difficult to understand?

This isn't just a website for those looking for new ways to grow tomatoes using their own poo, we also have people like the OP looking for legitimate answers to questions concerning their future boat purchase.

[Dr. Sea]

Originally Posted by Badsanta

I don't know why the op is even asking here. She doesn't need any advice and knows what they want and can afford it. The only reason to post is to say they are extremely wealthy or just trolling. Either way I'm not impressed.

The OP was asking for specific information about whether any penalties kick in from adverse regulations, such as 64.9 feet is OK but 65 feet subjects you to additional unwanted regulations. It's like some lakes prohibit 10 hp outboards or larger, so most manufacturers make 9.8 and 9.9 hp outboards to avoid a regulatory problem.

[FamilyVan]

I started out trying to read every post on this thread gave up.

Size very much matters in some places, especially as you get further away from the big flashy marinas of the US, Europe and Australia.

For Eastern Canada, I wouldn't want anything over 40'. If I didn't have (my wife's perceived ) need for spacious accomodations, my limits would be 5' draft, 30' loa and 45' air draft. Of course, you aren't getting a professional skipper on a boat that size.

Here's the problem, for Coastal Cruising in remote areas, the smaller the better. For offshore passage making, bigger seems to be more popular.

Seems like personal preference and priorities will be the deciding factor.




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[estarzinger]

To the Op's specific question. . . .

Yes there are in fact various both hard and soft size barriers with boats.

You are unlikely to reach them but 150 and 300 tons each kick in significant regulations.

There are various regulations that kick in at the 65' length (and its metric equiv). There are some solas requirements that kick in above 80' which are rarely enforced unless you are suspected to be a stealth charter boat.

There are both air and water draft limits set for various bridges types and channel depths. The very biggest super yachts are restricted by the Bridge of the Americas in air draft. Smaller boats deal with the typical hi-way bridge heights. And there are various standard limits in between that simply progressively restrict you. The same for draft.

For soft limits, I personally would say that 72' is about the minimum size to comfortable have pro crew. The commercial high latitude fleet has sort of settle on 80' as the "right" size. I know the oyster 72 billy Budd mentioned above very well as I looked after it for a while and was the owners rep helping them pick and refit a new boat when they decided 72 was too small (they then did the NWP in the boat I project managed for them 112').

But you are pretty much committed to a full time engineer at the least when you get over 70'. Sure you can single hand these boats. I single handed a 110'er from NZ to New Caledonia, but you sure as **** need everything working (and it is a full time job keeping them working).

There are docking size points, in the high latitudes driven by the typical fishing boat sizes. Get much bigger than the typical local fishing fleet and you will start encountering problems. In Iceland 60' is one sort of local town dock limit and 80' for bigger fishing towns. I know that I think 50' is the maxmium in the high latitudes to be pretty sure you will be able to wedge in anywhere - and that happens to be the size of the private boat (non crewed) that has spend more time in high latitudes than any other.

And finally, honestly, I think the OP may have an unrealistic idea about sailing in general and sailing in the high latitudes specifically. Simple fact = You motor more the bigger the boat is. In the size range you are talking about +50% motoring is quite typical even among really hard core sailors.And an 80' power boat has a lot of advantages in that environment.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Stu,

Seriously, does the following paragraph from the Pardey's website really sound like it contains useful information for someone like the OP with a much higher budget?

From the website:

"We have no installed head due to our dislike of holding tanks, so we have made an enclosure with seat and lid for a bucket and have come up with solutions that we feel work well. Offshore, we use the bucket-and-chuck-it system. Near shore or in enclosed anchorages, we use Wag Bags in the bucket. These fully biodegradable bags-familiar to dog and cat owners-contain special powder (called Pooh-Powder) that turns urine into a gel and deodorizes the waste. The special enzymes in the gel also kill bacteria and promote the breakdown of waste and bags. After using the bag (one bag can be used five or six times), we simply seal it into the separate biodegradable pouch supplied with each kit. Then it can be deposited in the trash for disposal at landfills. In Peru, where these bags are required for anyone hiking the Inca Trail, the waste product is allowed to break down in compost heaps; within four months, the compost can be used safely for gardening."

Have you ever actually read anything by the Pardeys? Seems a pretty narrow-minded take on their impressive body of work, to me... ;-)

Sure, they are the polar opposites in terms of the 'style' of cruising the OP desires, but as some of the most accomplished small boat voyagers of their generation, there is still a wealth of great information that any sailor could learn from their impressive body of knowledge and experience...

It would seem to require more than just a touch of hubris, to assume there is little to be gleaned from people who have doubled Cape Horn from E to W in an engineless 28-footer, regarding matters having to do with passage planning, storm tactics, and overall seamanship... I think their take on "Safety" is PRECISELY the sort of approach that should be heeded by a newbie like the OP, and many of today's sailors who fail to appreciate that "safety" is a mindset, and appear to believe instead that it's a result of spending money on some ever-lengthening list of requisite gear...

You Can’t Buy Safety

Posted by Lin & Larry on May 15, 2012

This chapter, from our book the Capable Cruiser, 3rd edition was originally written in response to a magazine editorial. It was printed in Latitudes and Attitudes several years ago but nothing has changed as far as the heavy marketing of so called Safety equipment. So Larry and I think it is worth sharing it with folks who getting ready to set off cruising.

The list of safety gear you “should” buy is endless; the potential to sink your cruising budget by buying it is definitely real. Some safety gear is essential, some is useful, most of it will never get used so where do you draw the line? It’s a hard call even for experienced sailors. The only way to make wise choices is by getting out sailing and racking up lots of sea time in lots of different weather situations so you can truly evaluate what equipment you need. In the rush to ready your boat and shore life so you can get out cruising, it is hard to gain this experience/sea time.

Here are some thoughts to keep in mind when you consider safety gear:

The first and most important piece of safety gear you have on board is a partner who has the knowledge and skills to handle the boat. There is not one piece of man-overboard gear that is going to help if the person left on the boat does not know how to get the boat back to you.

Your boat is your life raft. That rubber thing in a valise or canister is an abandon-ship raft, a flimsy replacement for the strong boat you are thinking of leaving and only a hopeful last chance. The vast majority of boats abandoned by their owners are later found drifting crew-less and afloat.

The harness you may or may not use on deck is just that, a harness to back up your hands. It does not insure safety, nor is it a substitute for learning to move around on deck using the old fashioned sounding seaman’s adage; one hand for you, one hand for the ship.

The only sure way of avoiding collisions at sea is by having someone stand watch in the cockpit. A watch keeper on deck will be able to spot that violent squall approaching in time to drop sail before it hits. Because he/she will have lots of time to look around the boat the watch keeper might notice a potential gear failure before it causes a serious problem. The more reasons (or excuses) you have for staying below deck, the less safe you become.

Gear that is used only in emergencies may not function properly if you and the crew have not practiced using it. Inflatable items like liferafts may also fail to inflate/deploy/work due to ingress of salt water, exposure to sun and heat or human error when it was originally packed or repacked.

Think prevention instead of cure. I.e. improving the non-skid on your deck and cabin-top could prevent crew from skidding overboard. Improving your boomvang/preventer-tackle-system could prevent an injury-causing accidental gybe.

Over the past few months we have had the pleasure of rendezvous with some highly experienced cruising sailors, folks who have each circumnavigated twice and sailed far beyond the normal routes including Noel and Litara Barrett winners of the Blue Water Medal, Alvah and Diana Simons, Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger. Interestingly the topic of safety brought the same reactions from each of these master sailors, “it’s far safer at sea than on the freeways. Car’s whizzing past you at 60 miles an hour, only three or four feet to spare. Out at sea you are rarely moving more than 6 or 8 knots.” But we all agreed; with experience comes confidence, with confidence comes the ability to access safety or accept risks. Almost everyone who sets off cruising has far more experience on freeways than at sea. If you had a look at the boats each of these remarkable people sail you’d be surprised at how Spartan their “safety gear” list appears. Each of their boats is highly geared towards efficient sailing, each has very clear deck areas and an extensive system of handholds throughout the cabin, in the cockpit and on deck, and each has all essential systems independent of electricity. Each carries a plethora of back up rigging and sail repair equipment. Each has an abundance of anchors, anchor-rodes and a powerful windlass.

If you are outfitting for your first foray offshore, consider spending some of the funds you put aside for safety equipment on a learn- to- cruise charter. Invite that salty old guy who sailed around the world ten years back to go out sailing with you for a weekend and assess your gear, or lack of it, through his eyes. Hire a professional delivery skipper to join you for a day or two of sea-trails before you invest in any more “safety” gear. You will be buying something far more dependable than a piece of gear that might theoretically save your life in a theoretical situation; you’ll be buying first-hand experience that could prevent that theoretical catastrophe from happening in the first place.


You Can’t Buy Safety | Lin & Larry Pardey: Newsletters & Cruising Tips

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

And finally, honestly, I think the OP may have an unrealistic idea about sailing in general and sailing in the high latitudes specifically. +50% motoring is quite typical even among really hard core sailors. And an 80' power boat has a lot of advantages in that environment.

My thoughts as well...

Although, I think I could probably get by with a Nordhavn 76...

;-)

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

The OP was asking for specific information about whether any penalties kick in from adverse regulations, such as 64.9 feet is OK but 65 feet subjects you to additional unwanted regulations. It's like some lakes prohibit 10 hp outboards or larger, so most manufacturers make 9.8 and 9.9 hp outboards to avoid a regulatory problem.

Actually, the OP wasn't quite that precise in his initial post...

Originally Posted by No boat yet

We all know that size is important but is a bigger boat necessarily beneficial?

... we will be buying, a new boat between 45 and 65 ft in the new year.....

[estarzinger]

There is a "psychological" aspect to size also. Reading the OP's posts, it should like they are used to being in the top 1%. If they go with a 60-70' crewed boat, they will be in the "starter boat" "cheap seats" for pro crewed boats. That will restrict the level of crew who will apply and effect the way the owners are viewed in places like Antigua. The owners may or may not find that to be a "problem" . . . . But they should know that among this crowd "real boats" start at 100' and below that you are non-serious pretenders.

[FamilyVan]

For the OP, I think you should consider revising your boat selection criteria. You say a boat 45-65'. You acutely acknowledge that slip availability over 45' is limited in your first post. Instead of choosing a size first, why not start with a list of wants?

You already have a good start, you have a budget- lots of money. You know their are two of you, plus you want a pilot in remote areas, so, probably 2 cabins and possibly two heads. You want a mono. You plan on open ocean passages, so you want decent sized diesel and water tanks.

To me, this sounds like a boat of around 45'. 65' is so far from this that I have trouble seeing what your criteria is in that size range.

Maybe create a list of desired outcomes and put the puzzle together that way?

For example, I have an acute preference for small vessels. I like easy single handing, I like beaching or tieing up in bays bow too, I like accessing small harbours with short narrow slips, I'm not overly keen on anchoring and dinghying into shore. I also like standing head room, a private bunk and diesel engines and private head. To put this package together, I need a boat 27-30' in length.

My wife wanted additional but specific features including a decent galley with double sink, running water and most importantly, a proper, private cabin for the kids.

We combined her wants with mine and set out to find the smallest boat we could to fit that criteria. We found a design that had 2 full height cabins in a 35', 5' draft, 11' beam. In order to achieve those outwards dimensions with two cabins, it necessitated that we go with a heavy displacement design.

The boat is bigger than I would prefer, but a nice compromise has been achieved. We get the 2 private cabins she wanted at a cost to size and sailing performance that are important to me.

So, long winded post saying, take a results oriented approach to vessel choice, rather than starting with a random size and making it work one way or the other.

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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

. . .
But you are pretty much committed to a full time engineer at the least when you get over 70'. Sure you can single hand these boats. I single handed a 110'er from NZ to New Caledonia, but you sure as **** need everything working (and it is a full time job keeping them working).

. . .

Keeping any reasonably comfortable cruising boat of any size in working condition is a significant workload. More systems = more workload, but if you want electrical power, heat, plumbing, propulsion (the things that KISS extremists like the Pardeys forgo, but hardly anyone else does), then even a 30' boat is a significant workload.

That's why for me a full time engineer would be a real liberation. I actually had such a guy for a few years, but then he moved away to Australia to become a Harley Davidson mechanic . . .

The OP should know that a common definition of cruising is "boat repair in exotic places". Pro crew liberate you from that. At some point you might give up the pro captain (I wouldn't really need that), but having an engineer/spare watchkeeper/deckhand on board would be pure gold. I think you don't need a boat as big as 72' to have one guy, or even a couple -- I think it becomes possible at about 65'.

Originally Posted by estarzinger

And finally, honestly, I think the OP may have an unrealistic idea about sailing in general and sailing in the high latitudes specifically. Simple fact = You motor more the bigger the boat is. In the size range you are talking about +50% motoring is quite typical even among really hard core sailors.And an 80' power boat has a lot of advantages in that environment.

Every cruiser motors a lot, that's for sure. I'm not sure, however, that it's true that bigger boats motor more. I think you motor more in boats with less sailing ability, and you motor more if you are sailing longer distances and need to make miles versus sailing around the bay on nice weekends.

But larger boats with good sailing qualities can be kept sailing with profitable speed in a wider range of conditions than smaller boats.

I may have mentioned we just got back from 1500 miles against prevailing wind from E Finland to the Solent, and used only 2/3 of a tank of fuel for the whole trip including fuel used for production of heat and electrical power. I have new carbon laminate sails and tried hard to sail rather than motor, and that makes a difference. YMMV. But less than 50% motoring is probably relatively rare for any long distance cruiser, big or small, so the underlying point is of course true.

[estarzinger]

Just for discussion . . . This is (by far) the most 'successful' (long time doing it, probably most miles, most NWP's, most arctic and antarctic ice, zero safety incidents) private pleasure high latitude cruising boat (And it has also done pretty much everything in 'normal' latitudes). It's not all that well known outside the small 'serious crowd' because Dave has enough money and a small enough ego he does not feel any need to publish or 'be known'.

[brownoarsman]

Can you write it in to the full time engineer's contract that he also has to repair any heads issues?

Also, does having full time, paid crew subject the yacht owner to the requirements of the Jones Act? Assuming the OP is American ...

OP, I'm on a small boat, but when my dad wanted to purchase a much larger one, we chartered a large boat in the BVI. One turn cranking big sails in by hand while close hauled convinced him a bit smaller was better for him - not pricing. Of course we could have come up into the wind more to take some of the pressure off the sails, cranked in there, and then fallen off again, but such a move requires two people, a rock steady autopilot, or a willingness to risk back winding the headsail and tacking, and dad wanted to see what it was like single handing the bigger boat. If you are serious about kicking off the crew, do take FV's advice and approach this from a list of wants (not needs). Also, try before you buy-get out there and grind some winches! For what it's worth, I bought based on needs and wish I'd considered more wants!


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[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Have you ever actually read anything by the Pardeys? Seems a pretty narrow-minded take on their impressive body of work, to me... ;-)

Sure, they are the polar opposites in terms of the 'style' of cruising the OP desires, but as some of the most accomplished small boat voyagers of their generation, there is still a wealth of great information that any sailor could learn from their impressive body of knowledge and experience...

It would seem to require more than just a touch of hubris, to assume there is little to be gleaned from people who have doubled Cape Horn from E to W in an engineless 28-footer, regarding matters having to do with passage planning, storm tactics, and overall seamanship... I think their take on "Safety" is PRECISELY the sort of approach that should be heeded by a newbie like the OP, and many of today's sailors who fail to appreciate that "safety" is a mindset, and appear to believe instead that it's a result of spending money on some ever-lengthening list of requisite gear...

Thanks, Jon.

IIRC, The Hiscocks started off small, too.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Just for discussion . . . This is (by far) the most 'successful' (long time doing it, probably most miles, most NWP's, most arctic and antarctic ice, zero safety incidents) private pleasure high latitude cruising boat (And it has also done pretty much everything in 'normal' latitudes). It's not all that well known outside the small 'serious crowd' because Dave has enough money and a small enough ego he does not feel any need to publish or 'be known'.

That boat looks remarkably like a 47' MLB with a redesigned sheer and increased height added aft in what would be a 47's engine room, but is possibly an aft cabin in this design.



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