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Old 08-09-2015, 14:46   #121
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
It IS possible to mess up on an Oyster that's too big. I know of two couples, maybe three who each purchased an Oyster 62 who are now in their 70's and require a two person crew aboard at all times. Neither couple is able to sail, dock or anchor the boat alone, they are totally dependent on crew. So all they seem to do is complain about the crew they have, the crew they had or finding new crew. I think part of it has to do with the boat not being large enough to accomodate crew in separate quarters to have their own space.... then they get on each others nerves, or their wallet isn't large enough to seek out high quality professional crew, and instead they get the left overs. BUT before the larger boat naysayers get too excited, I've met many couples on Swans 65 &70, Oysters 575 and 625 and larger who are doing just fine with their very professional crew, in most cases... Only one individual is required to help out.
Experience leading teams of people on land helps enormously with choosing and managing crew.

Some people can't stand to have other people on board, and are always having some problem or another. Some other people on the contrary really enjoy it, and always seem to find great people who don't get in the way at all, but rather contribute to the society on board.
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Old 08-09-2015, 14:52   #122
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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There is a "psychological" aspect to size also. Reading the OP's posts, it should like they are used to being in the top 1%. If they go with a 60-70' crewed boat, they will be in the "starter boat" "cheap seats" for pro crewed boats. That will restrict the level of crew who will apply and effect the way the owners are viewed in places like Antigua. The owners may or may not find that to be a "problem" . . . . But they should know that among this crowd "real boats" start at 100' and below that you are non-serious pretenders.
The OP doesn't suffer these ego issues, the question was a genuine.... if I could find an aeroplane that suited our needs that was 2.99 tonnes I would buy it as the silly weight limit causes issues iat 50% of the airports we visit....such an aeroplane doesn't exist so I put up with some inconveniences on the ground for benfits in the air...... the original question was posed with genuine concerns.
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Old 08-09-2015, 14:55   #123
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Bigger boat more space. Trade off is were you can go were you can dock and it's harder in Port. In the ocean bigger boats handle better. Some sailboats are designed to almost never leave the dock. So they have bigger windows ect. It's more the design and layout a kitchen with everything in reach is handy in the open ocean at the dock a bigger one is nicer. So it depends were you plan on being most of the time just head to a marina and talk to boat owners they will tell you what works and doesn't since lots of them have done what you want to do
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Old 08-09-2015, 14:56   #124
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Can you write it in to the full time engineer's contract that he also has to repair any heads issues?

Also, does having full time, paid crew subject the yacht owner to the requirements of the Jones Act? Assuming the OP is American ...

OP, I'm on a small boat, but when my dad wanted to purchase a much larger one, we chartered a large boat in the BVI. One turn cranking big sails in by hand while close hauled convinced him a bit smaller was better for him - not pricing. Of course we could have come up into the wind more to take some of the pressure off the sails, cranked in there, and then fallen off again, but such a move requires two people, a rock steady autopilot, or a willingness to risk back winding the headsail and tacking, and dad wanted to see what it was like single handing the bigger boat. If you are serious about kicking off the crew, do take FV's advice and approach this from a list of wants (not needs). Also, try before you buy-get out there and grind some winches! For what it's worth, I bought based on needs and wish I'd considered more wants!


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No....sigh....the OP is not a Septic....just someone that had a legitimate question......... don't care about your dad, not relevent .....
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Old 08-09-2015, 15:00   #125
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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I think there is some great advice here as usual. Just filter through it well and as mentioned, there is in fact plenty of information in previous posts.

If you are going to high latitudes then an aluminium boat is the way to go. Plenty of superb yacht makers in Holland especially. You can insulate a fibreglass hull and be equally warm. It is just not as tough.

As to size; that is partly linked to the crew requirement. I personally would ensure I don't need hired crew. It's not for me. Others have the polar opposite view. If you find you like crew then I think you might want a boat of a minimum of 70 ft and fit it out with crew quarters so you and the crew can enjoy privacy. 100ft would be ideal for crewed comfort. Take two and you will never have your sleep disturbed by watches. If you are a more sociable and amenable type and if your crew is too then you can all get by on any sized boat pretty much.

If you go non-crew then the size of boat might be determined by what is the maximum size you would feel comfortable living in. I think an upper limit for a couple may be also around the 70ft to 75ft size as anything above that is a bit pointless - fluttering around like a moth inside a stately home.

The bigger you go the more maintenance there is, but it doesn't rise in proportion to size. A bigger boat usually has only one engine, one genset, 6 winches etc just like a smaller one. Sailing bigger boats is on balance not really any harder than small ones.

Extra size isn't a problem for berthing except for a few marinas in most parts of the world, but you can park around the corner usually in a nearby bay. Nicer anyway.

Shallow draft is more important in some places like the Bahamas/Florida and you can specify a lifting or folding keel if that will be an issue for you.

There is a lot of bureacracy if you go big. Under 78ft and you are a small yacht. Somewhere around 82ft+ under the MCA rules you become a ship and will be obliged to have pro-crew with a ton of rules and regs to conform to. Yuck.

As a wild guess for your solution - Build a 75ft alu boat for just you and the wife. Hire a skipper to teach you how to run it for a few months or a year then off you go. After the first year it should be de-bugged and probably quite reliable for a few years. I hope you can afford it as this plan will probably cost you a few $M over 5 years, mostly in depreciation. If money is an issue then just down size. You'll have exactly the same fun going smaller, just a little less comfort.

I'll underscore previous advice. If you or your wife haven't done some long passages then charter first to test how you get on. A lot of people can't stand it. Seasickness, discomfort, fatigue.
Have you ever had hired crew? for your boat? your aeroplane? your business or your house? ...... they make life easier...again, off topic, thanks for the response but move on...irrelevent.....
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Old 08-09-2015, 15:12   #126
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by No boat yet View Post
Have you ever had hired crew? for your boat? your aeroplane? your business or your house? ...... they make life easier...again, off topic, thanks for the response but move on...irrelevent.....
Relax -- different people have completely different attitudes towards this. It's a matter of personality and taste as well as means.
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Old 08-09-2015, 15:21   #127
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by No boat yet View Post
No....sigh....the OP is not a Septic....just someone that had a legitimate question......... don't care about your dad, not relevent .....

Seriously?! You have so far denigrated multiple forum members who were responding to this thread in an honest attempt to try to help a new member of the cruising community, one who admitted to a lack of experience.

If you are unable to learn from their experiences and consider their suggestions without the considerable attitude you have displayed so far, not only will you not fit into the larger cruising community as a whole, you'll have trouble finding a place on this forum and being successful at life as a cruising couple. Good luck regardless.


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Old 08-09-2015, 15:41   #128
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by No boat yet View Post
Have you ever had hired crew? for your boat? your aeroplane? your business or your house? ...... they make life easier...again, off topic, thanks for the response but move on...irrelevent.....
What!

Of course I have, many times over. I told you it is not for me, but allowed it might be for you and you respond to my attempt to be helpful with an indignant response and an incorrect suggestion it was not relevant. You are a little out of order.

One further bit of advice. Use kinder words with your crew than you used here and in some of your other responses if you really want to keep them.
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Old 08-09-2015, 16:03   #129
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Have you ever had hired crew? for your boat? your aeroplane? your business or your house? ...... they make life easier...again, off topic, thanks for the response but move on...irrelevent.....
Well if you are such an expert hirer, hire a boat buying consultant. PM me, I'll give you a special price

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Old 08-09-2015, 16:04   #130
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
It IS possible to mess up on an Oyster that's too big. I know of two couples, maybe three who each purchased an Oyster 62 who are now in their 70's and require a two person crew aboard at all times. Neither couple is able to sail, dock or anchor the boat alone, they are totally dependent on crew. So all they seem to do is complain about the crew they have, the crew they had or finding new crew. I think part of it has to do with the boat not being large enough to accomodate crew in separate quarters to have their own space.... then they get on each others nerves, or their wallet isn't large enough to seek out high quality professional crew, and instead they get the left overs. BUT before the larger boat naysayers get too excited, I've met many couples on Swans 65 &70, Oysters 575 and 625 and larger who are doing just fine with their very professional crew, in most cases... Only one individual is required to help out.
Sounds like there might be a sweet spot b'twn. too big for just a couple vs. too small with hired crew onboard. Not a problem I can foresee for myself, but maybe worth some investigation by the OP. Unless he also deems this "irrelevant" of course.
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Old 08-09-2015, 16:08   #131
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

I really think you're talking about two different boats: An initial, larger boat with an interior plan setup for crewing, and a second, likely smaller boat with a deck plan appropriate for a couple for down the road when you know what you don't need and what you like and don't like in sailboats. Your preferences will change dramatically from a newbie's initial impression to a cruiser's seasoned eye anyway.

You have two entirely different use cases going on here, and no single boat is really ideal for either one. You don't seem like a person who enjoys compromise much, and if money isn't a significant factor then I think two boats makes more sense than one.

60' is >really small< for a boat with crew. Unless you really enjoy their company (and they enjoy yours), you're going to want some significant separation: Separate galley, separate head, maybe even a bulkhead separating them. You'll be hard pressed to find a monohull <65' that provides this kind of separation.

On the other side of the coin, 60' is >really big< for just two people. With modern reefing systems and power winches, they can be effectively single-handed (that's my own safety requirement, it may not be yours) and with thrusters you can resolve the marina docking issues. But around here in Southern California, we see boats this size routinely being told there's no mooring or dockage for them, and they wind up in commercial docks.

Once you've gotten comfortable with your big boat and no longer require crew, you'll find there's a lot of wasted space you're doing nothing with except using as storage. That's length you could be reducing to make close quarters maneuvering easier and to get into shallower bays or shorter slips.

Get a big boat now for crew, figure out what you like and don't like, and plan on getting the right boat after you know what you want. You may find for high-latitude cruising that you're best off of having a custom steel boat built for your exact criteria.
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Old 08-09-2015, 16:16   #132
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
Zinger, how does he achieve the fuel range necessary for a NW passage?

No doubt he has not gone with standard twin 350 HP Detroit's/Caterpillars and has gone with smaller 100 HP or so engines, saving weight for additional tankage beyond the standard 1500 litres, even still, I can't imagine with such a light displacement hull how he could extend his fuel range much beyond 1500 miles?

Has he stayed with aluminum, or redesigned for steel? The steel would cost him much of the weight savings from smaller engines. I've had the aluminum models out in ice, and they are not good performers in ice.

I guess weight savings from not having a fly bridge or mast mounted buoyancy tanks would also be significant.

I guess fuel stops on Baffin, and Victoria Islands, McKenzie River.

I know the St Roche II did the trip west to east with only 3000 litres, but she had fuel assistance en route from the CG.

Is she still fully self righting without the buoyancy tanks aloft and on the stern?

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Polar Bound is 48 feet in length with an 18 foot beam and a six foot draft.
She's propelled by a Gardner 150 hp 8-cylinder engine
Polar Bound carries ten tons of fuel which is approximately two and a
quarter thousand US gallons. cruise at about six knots, as that's the
economical cruising speed. 900 revs through a twin
disc, two-to-one reduction box. So you could say 400 or 450 at the
propeller end. On average about 150 miles a day, 1,000 miles a week,
and burning just about two and a half gallons an hour. a range
of 5,000 miles, a safe working range.

It's aluminum, but extremely "Ice class" scantlings. I have copies of the plans and I have only ever seen one more strongly build boat - Pete Blake's seamaster (another, bigger, sailing/motor-sailing, design intended for purposes similar to the the OP)

Not the best picture but gives an idea:
Click image for larger version

Name:	160778436_9d79ecb6fa.jpg
Views:	157
Size:	26.1 KB
ID:	108667
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Old 08-09-2015, 16:50   #133
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Speaking of, I just saw a vid of an Amel 64. A bit glitzy for my taste, but otherwise "wow"! It's even got Dockhead's garage for the RIB when the marina's too tight to accomodate the mother ship.
Impressive yacht, no question... The Amels are always 'interesting', if nothing else... ;-)





The placement of the saildrive is unique, no wonder she needs retractable thrusters at both the bow, and stern... Nothing could ever possibly go wrong with those, of course ;-)

But what catches my eye, is one of the compromises involved in having that stern garage... Look at how short the rudder post inside the hull is, greatly increasing the lever arm of such a critical component. No doubt Amel has engineered it superbly, but still, IMHO that arrangement is less than ideal. On my little tub, I really like the idea that the upper bearing of my rudder post is as high as practical, at the level of the cockpit seats...

On a boat with a single rudder, a dinghy garage is gonna represent a design challenge, for sure... I think the Hunter 54 is often considered the first medium-sized boat to adopt the feature, and they did it by placing the rudder post forward of the compartment... I'e never sailed one, but by most accounts I've heard, that boat was one hell of a handful to steer in sporty conditions off the wind, with that rudder placed where it was... ;-)





I've not had the best of luck with transom garages, myself... I used to run a Trintella 47 years ago, one of the first boats to generate all those "Ooohs and Ahhhs" when exhibited at the Annapolis show, and the operation of the hydraulic transom door was demonstrated... it never quite generated the rounds of APPLAUSE that Beneteau's SenseBoat did years later with their debut of the 360 Dock and Go, but there was no shortage of folks who still went gaga over it... ;-)

I used to run the boat down to Key West for the winter, and one year I arrived shortly before Thanksgiving... Pulling into the slip at the Galleon, I only had about a day to get the boat cleaned up, and drive up to Miami in time to catch a flight out to Phoenix to spend the holiday with my mom...

Underway, stuff like fenders, shore power cord and such all got stowed in that garage... However, when I pressed the button to open it for the final time on that delivery, nothing happened... Ooops...

So, I start poking around in the shallow cockpit lockers in search of the wire leads, or fusing, anything... As best I can tell with a multimeter, the switch itself is operational, and getting power to it... The wiring simply disappears into the garage space... All of the workings and machinery of the transom door are contained WITHIN the garage, there is no way to access them from either the cockpit, or the aft stateroom... Furthermore, there is no provision for opening the door manually...

The owner told me when he got on the phone with the guys at the yard over in the Netherlands, and described the problem, there was a 'lengthy pause' on the other end of the line...

;-)

The door eventually had to be pried open, basically with a crowbar... Despite their best efforts, considerable damage ensued, and the owner got a fresh Awlgrip job out of Trintella as a result...

KISS only applies to puny boats like mine, I suppose...

;-)
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Old 08-09-2015, 16:52   #134
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Polar Bound is 48 feet in length with an 18 foot beam and a six foot draft.
She's propelled by a Gardner 150 hp 8-cylinder engine
Polar Bound carries ten tons of fuel which is approximately two and a
quarter thousand US gallons. cruise at about six knots, as that's the
economical cruising speed. 900 revs through a twin
disc, two-to-one reduction box. So you could say 400 or 450 at the
propeller end. On average about 150 miles a day, 1,000 miles a week,
and burning just about two and a half gallons an hour. a range
of 5,000 miles, a safe working range.

It's aluminum, but extremely "Ice class" scantlings. I have copies of the plans and I have only ever seen one more strongly build boat - Pete Blake's seamaster (another, bigger, sailing/motor-sailing, design intended for purposes similar to the the OP)

Not the best picture but gives an idea:
Attachment 108667
Thanks for the great details....really serious cold weather yachts.

What is their preferred choice of heating and insulation?
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Old 08-09-2015, 17:15   #135
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

I have been wrestling with the size question recently, and have come to the conclusion that draft is key. The availability of accessible marinas drops dramatically with drafts of over 6.5 ft in many areas that I am interested in.

Navigation in many areas becomes more complicated and local knowledge less relevant.


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