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Old 06-09-2015, 14:09   #16
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
In the U.S., isn't a Type 2 MSD required at 65'? More of a nuisance, I think.
No idea - but I will research, thanks
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Old 06-09-2015, 14:10   #17
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Btw, the bigger the boat, the bigger your draft and air draft. Can be worrying, which the lower those numbers, the less worries you have.
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Old 06-09-2015, 14:13   #18
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Btw, the bigger the boat, the bigger your draft and air draft. Can be worrying, which the lower those numbers, the less worries you have.
Sure you are right but I can't see air draft being an issue and the comforts offered by a larger boat with more space and more resource outweighs the draft issue.......
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Old 06-09-2015, 14:30   #19
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by No boat yet View Post
Thanks Carsten.......we are very familiar with Iceland, Greenlad etc....just not with sailing around them......but we will be employing a Skipper/crew that does......ironically, if the boat size isn't an issue in the Med, US etc then I don't mind some aggro up North as I know where I can use in those parts of the planet.

Cheers!
If you have professional crew, then 60' is the MINIMUM size in my opinion, and the 20 meter barrier will maybe not be that important. You will want to have enough space for them to live somewhat apart from you. My boat at 54' and pretty voluminous inside even for that length, is too small for professional crew.

Boats big enough to require pro crew tend not to be so expensive in the second hand market. Larger boats are more expensive to keep up and refit, but if you choose carefully (with help from your professional captain) and plan carefully, you can do fine. If you had, for example, a million to 1.5 million for the boat and refit, you would have a lot of choice in the 65 to 90 foot range -- PROVIDED you have a good budget for annual running costs and ongoing repairs, which will be more expensive for an older large vessel.

With pro crew and a large tender, you will not care about going into marinas. You just berth in the commercial ports (sometimes cheaper than marinas, too) or anchor out and have your crew bring you in on the tender.

It's a different kind of cruising from what most of our gang here knows, but it's wonderful. You may never want to live on land again, and the cost is not actually radically different from living in a really nice (multimillion dollar or euro) house in a major metro area or European capital city.

Don't listen to discouraging words about high latitudes -- you need a really good captain, experienced, and careful, give him a reasonable budget for the right equipment, and a wide latitude on timing, and he will know how to plan it. High latitudes are magical. You will have a fabulous, unforgettable adventure.
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Old 06-09-2015, 15:20   #20
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Howdy!

Others have already addressed your primary question about whether a 60 foot boat will be a problem in marinas.

You wrote that you are: "My wife and I are very experienced travellers but inexperienced sailors....we are going on a world tour starting 2017 - clearing up business and "stuff" this year and next - we will be buying, a new boat between 45 and 65 ft in the new year.....cost isn't an issue and we will probably want a skipper for the first year or so."

Given that, I suggest you consider a nice "owners version" catamaran. This would allow the professional captain and crew (if a couple or not) to be in one hull while you and your wife have some privacy in the other "owners" hull.

And, this kind of boat is setup or designed to be for a couple. So, after you gain some experience, you will more likely find you are capable of handling the boat without a pro crew aboard.

On the other hand, if you go with the very large mono, you might find it difficult to handle it without a pro crew aboard, and that could be very limiting in the future.

Also, since you are planning to be onboard as a "home" for 5 years and at this point are inexperienced, I suspect you would enjoy your time on the catamaran due to the stability while at anchor (not so much rocking at anchor) and while sailing (it will not heel as much as a mono).

Given that money is not limiting you, you should be able to get a very nice boat (mono or cat), but I suspect you might enjoy the cat more.

Which one?
First off I would look at the Antares 44i. (New = $1Million+ Used = $700k)

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You mentioned searching the forum for answers.

There is an amazing amount of shared knowledge found in the thousands of threads on this forum. If one has a common question, the answers are usually there, often with different possible solutions. The trick is finding those threads and answers as they can be "lost" in the many threads, which are often not titled well.

Looking for Quick Answers?

This is the best and fastest method I have found to the answers I seek here.
Since you are relatively new to the forum, here is my favorite friendly forum search tip: Look at the menu bar on the forum pages for the drop down "Search" menu. Click on that to drop down a list of search functions. From that drop down menu select the GOOGLE CUSTOM search feature (the second box down) and then enter several different descriptive or key terms for your topic of interest. That will do a Custom google search of ONLY this site and it is likely to find answers to your questions or results for you. Note: this is VERY different from using the regular forum search box or field (which I never use because of poor search results). Also note, this is NOT found if you use the CF mobile app. It IS found if you use a web browser such as Safari, IE, Firefox, etc.

Note: The ordinary "search" field on this forum has yielded less helpful results for me when I perform searches. That is why I prefer and suggest the use of the alternative "Google Custom Search" instead. I see a very clear and big difference and find the Google Custom Search much easier for scanning (with my eyes) threads for relevant comments and information.
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Old 06-09-2015, 15:35   #21
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If you have professional crew, then 60' is the MINIMUM size in my opinion, and the 20 meter barrier will maybe not be that important. You will want to have enough space for them to live somewhat apart from you. My boat at 54' and pretty voluminous inside even for that length, is too small for professional crew.

Boats big enough to require pro crew tend not to be so expensive in the second hand market. Larger boats are more expensive to keep up and refit, but if you choose carefully (with help from your professional captain) and plan carefully, you can do fine. If you had, for example, a million to 1.5 million for the boat and refit, you would have a lot of choice in the 65 to 90 foot range -- PROVIDED you have a good budget for annual running costs and ongoing repairs, which will be more expensive for an older large vessel.

With pro crew and a large tender, you will not care about going into marinas. You just berth in the commercial ports (sometimes cheaper than marinas, too) or anchor out and have your crew bring you in on the tender.

It's a different kind of cruising from what most of our gang here knows, but it's wonderful. You may never want to live on land again, and the cost is not actually radically different from living in a really nice (multimillion dollar or euro) house in a major metro area or European capital city.

Don't listen to discouraging words about high latitudes -- you need a really good captain, experienced, and careful, give him a reasonable budget for the right equipment, and a wide latitude on timing, and he will know how to plan it. High latitudes are magical. You will have a fabulous, unforgettable adventure.
Thanks for the thoughts........we will be buying new and I would hopevto be able to be able to do without crew after 18 months or so.....certainly to be less reliant on them so 60ft and a bit will probably work out fine I suspect.......there will be a bit of light "commuting" in the first couple of years anyway so having someone onboard to look after it will be handy.....a few weeks away here and there is probably good for all concerned anyway!

I have been travelling to the high latitudes for several decades but I am looking forwarward to seeing them from the rather different perspective offered by a boat.
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Old 06-09-2015, 15:39   #22
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Howdy!

Others have already addressed your primary question about whether a 60 foot boat will be a problem in marinas.

You wrote that you are: "My wife and I are very experienced travellers but inexperienced sailors....we are going on a world tour starting 2017 - clearing up business and "stuff" this year and next - we will be buying, a new boat between 45 and 65 ft in the new year.....cost isn't an issue and we will probably want a skipper for the first year or so."

Given that, I suggest you consider a nice "owners version" catamaran. This would allow the professional captain and crew (if a couple or not) to be in one hull while you and your wife have some privacy in the other "owners" hull.

And, this kind of boat is setup or designed to be for a couple. So, after you gain some experience, you will more likely find you are capable of handling the boat without a pro crew aboard.

On the other hand, if you go with the very large mono, you might find it difficult to handle it without a pro crew aboard, and that could be very limiting in the future.

Also, since you are planning to be onboard as a "home" for 5 years and at this point are inexperienced, I suspect you would enjoy your time on the catamaran due to the stability while at anchor (not so much rocking at anchor) and while sailing (it will not heel as much as a mono).

Given that money is not limiting you, you should be able to get a very nice boat (mono or cat), but I suspect you might enjoy the cat more.

Which one?
First off I would look at the Antares 44i. (New = $1Million+ Used = $700k)

_________________

You mentioned searching the forum for answers.

There is an amazing amount of shared knowledge found in the thousands of threads on this forum. If one has a common question, the answers are usually there, often with different possible solutions. The trick is finding those threads and answers as they can be "lost" in the many threads, which are often not titled well.

Looking for Quick Answers?

This is the best and fastest method I have found to the answers I seek here.
Since you are relatively new to the forum, here is my favorite friendly forum search tip: Look at the menu bar on the forum pages for the drop down "Search" menu. Click on that to drop down a list of search functions. From that drop down menu select the GOOGLE CUSTOM search feature (the second box down) and then enter several different descriptive or key terms for your topic of interest. That will do a Custom google search of ONLY this site and it is likely to find answers to your questions or results for you. Note: this is VERY different from using the regular forum search box or field (which I never use because of poor search results). Also note, this is NOT found if you use the CF mobile app. It IS found if you use a web browser such as Safari, IE, Firefox, etc.

Note: The ordinary "search" field on this forum has yielded less helpful results for me when I perform searches. That is why I prefer and suggest the use of the alternative "Google Custom Search" instead. I see a very clear and big difference and find the Google Custom Search much easier for scanning (with my eyes) threads for relevant comments and information.
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Will give that method a try, thanks for the tip.

Cats just don't do it for me I'm afraid.....impressed with the space when I looked at the Lagoons at the last boatshow I went to......but there has to be the "look back" aesthetic quality and Cats are just ugly! I don't have an ugly house, aeroplane, car or motorcycle....not getting an ugly boat!
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Old 06-09-2015, 16:01   #23
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Hello,

We fall right in the middle of your size range, with a very deep draft, and here are our thoughts.

We've sailed this boat from California through the canal, then up to Newfoundland this summer, and are now in Maine on our way back to the Caribbean for another season, so we have a pretty decent cross section of destinations behind us.

First, I agree that something under 60' is probably too small to have crew. We sail with just the two of us, and find that having somebody else on board for more than a couple of weeks gets to be a drag. Everyone's different, but I would second that there needs to be some sort of separate crew quarters if you are wanting to bring along some hired help. If you're buying a new, semi-custom boat, you may be able to figure this into a design in the upper end of your range, and then turn it into a workshop or something after you're comfortable managing the boat on your own.

Regarding marinas, it's true that there are a lot of places that we can't get into, but we have not found this to really be an issue. What we give up in gunkholing ability, we more than make up for in passagemaking ability and comfort living aboard.

Bottom line, it's all a compromise, but we have no regrets going to a boat this size. It just requires a little more planning. Most of the places that you mention are not exactly 'marina' type places anyway, so you'll be anchored.

I say go for as big as you like. Certainly, the big boats have a lot going for them. Speed, ability to handle weather, stability. That said, however, you will be relying on mechanical/powered sailhandling systems, which can be problematic in the event of a failure, obviously. We have a single electric winch which does the majority of our heavy lifting, and we find that to be ok.

Good luck on the new venture. Perhaps our paths will cross.

TJ
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Old 06-09-2015, 16:11   #24
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

45'-65' size range is a huge disparity, IMHO... The first is about as large a boat as I would ever care to own, the the latter is at least 20' beyond what I'm comfortable sailing offshore, much less venturing to some of the places you've mentioned... Then again, I'm a bit of a wimp compared to many with my own personal comfort level regarding a manageable size for a cruising couple, nor would I EVER care to own a boat that required additional crew to go where I wanted to go...

"Problems in marinas" is the least of your concerns when going large. As someone has already suggested, you really need to do some sailing on different boats to gain some appreciation for what you feel you might be able to safely manage. The answer is not to be found in some sort of 'averaging-out' of opinions expressed by strangers on an internet sailing forum... ;-)

Pretty ambitious itinerary you have there, have you ever actually sailed offshore, or made a bluewater passage? If not, I'd strongly advise you to try to at least get a ride on something like the ARC, or Caribbean 1500, to help certify if this is something you're really cut out for... The glossy magazines do one hell of a job selling The Dream, as evidenced by the surprising number of folks who buy into it, before realizing it's not all what they imagined it to be... :-)

Oh, and don't worry about the size of your 60'+ Oyster posing any sort of problems in "marinas" in the Arctic Canada, for example...

'Cause there aren't any...

;-)





On the other hand, there are more than a few spots along the US East coast where your boat will be among the smallest ones, so... no problem there, either...

;-)
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Old 06-09-2015, 18:18   #25
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Originally Posted by No boat yet View Post
No idea - but I will research, thanks
Past 64' there are a number of more complicated regulations you have to meet. A lot of them are just built in, but they add up. MSD's, lights, pilot requirements, traffic Seperation Scheme compliance, ect.

Staying under this requirement is generally recommended until you break it by a good bit.
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Old 06-09-2015, 19:32   #26
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

As you can see...lots of opposing opinions which are really a difference in priorities.

I have a 65ft Mono that my girlfriend and I can easily sail ourselves.... I do have a fulltime deckhand simply to handle the maintenance chores and for extended cruising.

Increased Size per crew ratio translates to improved comfort at sea, privacy at anchor and with same design, a faster hull speed.

Ironically, you often find more available berths in the 60 to 75ft range than the more common 35-45ft size.

In Europe and many remote places, you will need to tie up stern to a dock or commercial pier, so access from the stern is a good feature and therefore....length is not an issue.

Most importantly, being content and self sufficient at anchor lends itself to a larger yacht for those who don't accept a camping standard.

If that is high on your priority, then manageable size is important.

Just make sure your boat has a suitable planing tender RIB with good seakeeping abilities, so that transit to and from shore is not a slow or white-water rafting experience in choppy conditions.

Good luck with your research and these shots of my Stargazer at a remote anchorage and underway, are what keeps me paying the bills
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Old 06-09-2015, 19:52   #27
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Interesting thoughts. Definitely do some offshore sailing before jumping in. Make sure the other half comes too. Mother nature could give two hoots about you and looks really friggen mean when the weather isnt nice. Had many a thought on a rough passage as to "why the hell I am out here" Also, 60 foot is a lot of boat to handle, handling that same boat in force 5 or worse is a whole different game too, big sails , big sheets. Can be frightening.
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Old 06-09-2015, 23:15   #28
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Here's your boat, an Oyster 625. Get a shoal draft version if you're worried about getting into shallow areas. It's the largest Oyster that the company recommends for couples or sailing short handed, meaning one extra crew member.
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Old 06-09-2015, 23:20   #29
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

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Also, 60 foot is a lot of boat to handle, handling that same boat in force 5 or worse is a whole different game too, big sails , big sheets. Can be frightening.
Just the opposite is true. Go inside a larger well-built boat in a force 8 or above, and it will have a calming effect, no wind noise, nothing being thrown about, it will feel... Solid and secure.
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Old 07-09-2015, 00:50   #30
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Re: Size is important ....or is it?

Think 125' aluminum hull with 3 engines and 30knt cruising speed.


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