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john61ct · 29-11-2017, 20:30

You don't decriminalise sex work because you think it will reduce the "need" for aggressive people to fail to control their actions and respect as autonomous humans those they come into contact with, who happen to have less power than they do.

Explicit consent between independent equals, given enthusiastically and when sober, will be, has to become the standard.

As a completely separate issue, of course sex work should be legal and socially accepted, just as a matter of basic rights. Workers need to be free from, actively protected from danger and coercion whether from customers, traffickers, pimps and police, and allowed to operate as independent entrepreneurs without stigma or shame.

All these issues are just basic and obvious human rights.

daletournier · 29-11-2017, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

You don't decriminalise sex work because you think it will reduce the "need" for aggressive people to fail to control their actions and respect as autonomous humans those they come into contact with, who happen to have less power than they do.

Explicit consent between independent equals, given enthusiastically and when sober, will be, has to become the standard.

As a completely separate issue, of course sex work should be legal and socially accepted, just as a matter of basic rights. Workers need to be free from, actively protected from danger and coercion whether from customers, traffickers, pimps and police, and allowed to operate as independent entrepreneurs without stigma or shame.

All these issues are just basic and obvious human rights.

I think the grey area is the interpretation of "aggressive people". I see in Paris wolf whistling "is going to be a criminal offence, I think the words" verbal violence "were used.

daletournier · 29-11-2017, 21:08

https://www.metro.news/emmanuel-macr...stling/834790/

Wayfarer1008 · 29-11-2017, 21:41

I do a lot of work in Nevada and in Nevada outside Clarke "Las Vegas and Washoe "Reno" counties prostitution has always been legal. I installed a seismograph station for an NSF project at a Brothel along highway 134 called the Pink Spur Ranch. When my field crew installed the station they went around the property fixing fences and helping putting in a septic tank for the property. For their efforts they got points towards a free ride on their choice of girls working at the ranch. When its out in the open and available no body cares except for control freaks. Nevada proves it.
Sexual harassment like we are seeing from these people has little to do with the actual act of sex but a lot more with as I said the thrill of the risk and the feeling of power that goes with it.

Pelagic · 29-11-2017, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

Explicit consent between independent equals, given enthusiastically and when sober, will be, has to become the standard.

Agreed John, that would be ideal, but how do we achieve it?

My thinking is that if a single guy is getting his oil changed on a regular basis by a professional mechanic.....he is far less likely to feel that pressure on a first or second date to get involved in bar room Popular Mechanics..

john61ct · 29-11-2017, 22:12

Again, no.

That may well become an unintended side effect, but is irrelevant to the issue.

Sexual harassment and violence will stop because men are raised properly to not be jerks, or fired, sued and jailed every single time they are.

Just put women in charge of the world for a while, of course won't make it perfect, but would be a **huge** improvement.

john61ct · 29-11-2017, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier

I think the grey area is the interpretation of "aggressive people". I see in Paris wolf whistling "is going to be a criminal offence, I think the words" verbal violence "were used.

Are you saying that is wrong?

Of *course* street harassment should be illegal!

valhalla360 · 29-11-2017, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer1008

Sexual harassment like we are seeing from these people has little to do with the actual act of sex but a lot more with as I said the thrill of the risk and the feeling of power that goes with it.

I would argue it has very little to do with the act. Most of these people have money coming out their ears and travel enough that they can stop off somewhere where it's legal to pay for it.

If they just needed a little release now and then, they have the opportunity. This is all about power. They just use the act as a way to release it.

valhalla360 · 29-11-2017, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

The repression of natural sexuality was always key to institutional / society's control of individuals.

Define natural sexuality.

I'm not suggesting the Matt Lauers of the world don't deserve to be strung up by their small bits but go back to the days when humans ranged in small hunter gatherer bands and the big strong guy would dominate and run off anyone going after the women he decided were his. As the big strong guy had good genetics and brought home more meat, evolution rewarded those women's lineages who participated voluntarily. I'm not sure...natural is what we want to strive for.

Which leads us to an interesting conundrum...there is an argument that humans are de-evolving. There is a strong trend that the brightest, most capable, hardest working are having few or no kids and are gradually being breed out of existence.

Jd1 · 30-11-2017, 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier

https://www.metro.news/emmanuel-macr...stling/834790/

Talk about political correctness gone haywire !

There are a lot of beautiful things on this earth that I appreciate. Any number of these things might cause me to comment on the beauty before me. Although the following will get me in deep trouble with the politically correct crowd I will suggest the following: If a woman does not wish to be 'assaulted' by men appreciating what they see before them, let them wear ear plugs or better yet, let them wear plain black full body coverings.
Just like a woman might feel 'assaulted' by sound, I might feel 'assaulted' by the visual sights in front of me! What gives a woman the right to claim 'assault' but if I were to complain I would be called a Neanderthal?

Let's reserve the word 'assault' for unwanted physical contact or severe examples of verbal abuse. Simply appreciating natures beauty is not 'assault'.
Yes, I am sure somebody will ask at what point you exceed 'appreciation' and get into more aggressive territory. I have no intention of debating this but a simple whistle of appreciation is not assault in my books.

Here is a bad example to get the politically correct crowd worked up: Would you walk into a tiger cage covered in steaks or would you prefer wearing a suit of armour instead?

I offer one last thought ..... I freely admit to enjoying a beautiful sunrise and watching it intently and maybe uttering the words 'wow', 'beautiful' or similar. I might even have to pick up my lower jaw from the floor ...... A sun rising behind an in penetrable veil of clouds and steady rain pouring down is not likely going to elicit any such response.

Pelagic · 30-11-2017, 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

Are you saying that is wrong?

Of *course* street harassment should be illegal!

John, this is where we get into muddy waters

Please try and define sexual harrasment in physical terms?

When does a look, becomes a leer?

Why can a French politician link a whistle at a beautiful girl to a statistic on frequent murders of women by their ex spouses......and get away with it?

When does innocent flirting at some point in a conversation become harrasment?

Are a group of men behaving badly at a strip club any morally different than women at same club, but with male stripper night?

Both groups often come out of that club all sexed up, joking and leering at attractive people on the street.

I understood you to say that even if legaly paid sex was to become readily available and was shown to diffuse sexual tensions in the workplace,... it doesn't matter?

You don't seem to accept that different people have different sexual urges and a variety of reasons to get their groove on.

If they gell together, it is fine, but if not, it could be considered harasment, especially when booze is involved

This all reminds me of when I was 16 and my mother forced my Scottish Presbyterian father to give me the "talk"

Totally embarrassed and stumbling in his words....he summed it up very quickly.

"Respect women and don't Masturbate!"

I remember thinking...
... Dad, you can have one, but not both?

So happy to have been with my loving partner of many years and not needing to walk this PC minefield and mindfield.

What message does this send to the young single sailor these days?

Single Ladies https://g.co/kgs/sArjxa

daletournier · 30-11-2017, 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

Are you saying that is wrong?

Of *course* street harassment should be illegal!

If you are asking me "do I think wolf whistling" is verbal violence and should be a criminal offence, well yes not only do I think taking it so seriously is wrong I think it's stupid. This is where the water gets murky as Pelagic points out.

Do we make a list of correct words and actions and one of illegal fineable words and actions? Who decides what's right and wrong, you? World according to John?

Can a man sneak a look at a beautiful woman or is that visual violence? If she's showing cleavage does she get to determine who looks and who doesn't, or is it wrong for anyone to look, or is a woman being dressed in a revealing manner visual violence to me? please explain how it all works, I'm getting confused! Please be precise so I don't make any mistakes.

And your comment about putting a woman in charge of the world, aren't we getting back to you being sexist again, discriminating against men based on gender.