Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.

[wolfgal]

since the post i made earlier, which was intended as a one-n-only post, i've been thinking about a few things, so, with a bit of hesitation, i'm back.

first off, i am pleased to announce that, since that post, i've become aware of more gals, like me, who love sailing and who are doing what they can to get out there on their own. i have confirmation guys, we are here among you.

and i appreciate many of the posts made since and would like to acknowledge a few: Saleen (the 'mystery lady' bit is quite flattering, thank you), ExMaggiedrum (thanks for the statistical perspective on meeting people), Goat (no, you met another gal like me and you sum it up the solution well), Redhead (lyrical is a beautiful word, thank you!), Pelagic (thank you for that so very insightful and inspiring text about seeking love!), Ann and Jim (you two are my models, hope to meet you one day), Zee (the wise and oh so very candid one, i'll be looking out for you!). a big thank you to others here who have done what they can to keep this thread constructive and useful to us all.

after reading some of the posts, i asked myself what quality in a relationship is most important. please note that i did not write 'quality in a man' but 'quality in a relationship'. it's a good question. and i'm curious to know if you agree with me.

and obviously, this answer is quite personal, coming from my own me-self-and-i, self-centered world... but hands down, for me, it is complicity.

complicity: this is when we get the stuff out of the dingy and into the boat without a mishap. this is when we clean the winches without loosing one of those little springs. this is when we gather up all of those tiny beads that are jumping out of the traveler and rolling off the cabin top and actually succeed in putting the thing back together again. this is when we manage a difficult docking in a blow. this is when we cook together while listening to the news on the radio (and feel thankful that we can simply choose to turn the thing off). this is when we talk about perspectives, values, events that are important to each in a respectful, constructive way. this is when we meet other people and learn about their lives, their choices and hardships and part feeling enriched by their personal accounts.

this is when, as a team, we get really good at knowing the moon phases, reading the clouds and the colors in the sky, the color and texture of the water, when we get good at reefing, and this, at the right moment; and this is also when we suddenly figure out how to fix the automatic pilot. it is when we invent our own personal systems that make boat living safe and pleasurable.

complicity thrives in everyday kindness, during those moments when each is conscious of picking the best moment to make a contribution, in the silence when we read in the cockpit, in that considerate moment when a hot cup of soup emerges from below during a cold watch.

kindness and complicity... yes. yet, i'm hoping for more than this. i imagine that we systematically pick up floating plastic, that we go out of our way to lend a helping hand, that we get good at some task and make it a point to provide that service to people who need it. With the world the way it is, there are ample opportunities to help people on boats, people on shorelines, on islands. and personally, I feel i have a duty to do what i can for Nature at large... imagine how fulfilling this would be to be able to give more than we take!

and i'd hope that my partner and i would get good at developing strategies to pull ourselves out of our own comfort zones, and better, away from our everyday frustrations and those boring chores that bind even the well-intentioned among us to smallness. whether i'm solo or in a couple, i want experience today, right up the rest of my life, as something bigger than and outside of my own, very egocentric tendencies. criticizing others, brings the soul nothing. and being alone does not mean that i will feel alone: i'm finding it is a matter of choosing not to focus on the loneliness that burns fiercely at the center of each's tiny world. i want to develop ways to shift my focus toward the outside and pay attention to the good i find there. i want to become conscious of the fact that i am feeling good because i am playing a constructive role within the whole. my feeling is that this attitude, this conscious desire will help nurture the complicity in my couple.

an optimist? sure sounds like it, i agree. i am an optimist on some days on land but am so happy on sailboats, so happy. i ask myself why. If happiness is first something that we cultivate on the inside, why do i need to be in a boat, on the water, at sea to be happy?

I think it has to do with how i've (somehow) defined my core values. Not that i consider myself all that successful at it, but I've consciously and systematically steered clear of two pitfalls in life: routine and debt. to me, routine kills the soul and debt is its best friend. i want each and every day to be authentic, authentic in its challenges and its bliss. i need to experience the awe that sailors feel below the blanket of stars, before an encroaching storm, the exhilaration when the boat violently heels and almost rounds up, when land comes into view. i need to feel the shared love that exists below the waterline and among the sea life, the dolphins, turtles, whales, fish and birds. my dreams are most vivid when rocked by the movement of the hull in the water. I appreciate trusting in the soles of my feet on the deck and the spacing between the shrouds and lifelines while checking the anchor on a dreary, uneasy night. I need to feel that i can be on my way when (the weather and) i choose. i want to choose my horizon and choose what i find to focus on there.

so many of you speak of women needing security. because i do crave a more adventurous existence, it might seem as though i do not need security; but, now that i've looked deeper within myself, i realize that i do need it, terribly, just like the person who needs to keep a base on land or who is unwilling to take the risk of casting off.

how? when i ask myself this: what is the number one obstacle (beyond my responsibility to my kids who are on the brink of being old enough for me to begin living on my boat at least part of the year), what is the thing that is keeping me (and others who are dreaming the same dream) back from getting out there now?

first and foremost, it is the question of financial security. now, this doesn't mean that i'm scratching dirt. this doesn't mean i'm looking for a man to foot the bill. this means that even though i might have enough (with my savings, with the rental incomes that i'm setting up, not quite yet, in one year it should be set), the not-knowing of it all, the risk involved in taking the big step... ultimately, this fear is what is holding me back. it is curious how i'm into braving storms, losing sight of land and going up the mast to retrieve the halyard, but it frightens me to think that my dream could come crashing down, because i did not plan well enough.

seriously, i've read SO many threads on the subject, oh so many, but the spreadsheet and i just stare at one another.... and since, 'it depends' on everything, i never feel as though i have the grip i need. all i know is that i should do the numbers as though i were to go it alone. it is difficult to even fathom this... but I need to face this possibility: i might always be alone. i might have to hire someone to help me rebed the hatches, or whatever on the boat; and this only gets more expensive as i get older and lose the muscles. Everything will take me three, four, five times as long. you guys know what i'm talking about: there is nothing like being in a team when it comes to repair.

Do reliable, professional, financial advisors for solo (female), cruisers exist? Here's a job for a guy who can make sense out different spreadsheet scenarios. Anybody out there?

the second thing holding me back, beyond the fear of not being experienced enough to make every decision the right one, is the fear of not being able to fix it. i know that people tend to lend a helping hand in the boating world, that boaters often trade goods and services, and this, willingly. so i would think that the faith i'd need in others would come. perhaps kindling this faith is a matter of confidence (knowing when to trust and, ahem, keeping those grabbing hands at bay), perhaps, but geez, i'm so lost when it comes to gadgets! i'd much rather do plumbing, carpentry, varnishing, engine work, or, i dare say it, even electricity.

So... has anyone noticed that i've turned this thread around? (i just noticed myself). maybe instead of asking 'oh where can she be?', 'why not me?', 'what makes the perfect woman?' maybe it is more about finding ways to enable women, to find how to help get good women out there. Maybe it is time to start a thread called: Hey gals, how can we help you get out here?

think about it, maybe i'm not the only one who would like to find a reliable financial advisor and people who are willing to teach me how to rebed a hatch so i can do the others myself (yes i know there is youtube, but the hands-on way is how i learn), splice, repair sails, all kinds of things... Classes get expensive.

and i write this... and the little voice of caution speaks to me, because I know first hand that some men go absolutely bananas when i get on their boats (not a joke guys. there are forcefully self-serving among you, as though i was a tasty dinner buffet). Maybe i was too naive back when i began crewing but must admit that weeding through you guys takes much energy and even then, i doubt...

in any case, your support, even the smallest does of 'you can do it girl' would be appreciated.

to end this lengthy post, i'd like to add this:
the fact that i am operating under a false identity (chichi is my sis' cat's name) has really helped me open up, share my fears, and i dare say, figure myself out to some degree. could it be that my fellow female wannabes would benefit from doing the same. if so, my apologies to the admins...

[SV Siren]

Chichi,

While I just cannot read every post on this thread, from the ones I have read, yours is the best, and most open. Any single person on here should be reading this to get a good handle on the opposite sex, and this goes for men and women.

If you want someone to join in on your adventures, you actually have to include them, and make it about being part of a team, albeit a small team of two. Anyone who just plows forward without considerations of their other half is just fooling themselves. People are going to make mistakes, it will happen, that's for certain. It is about how you pick yourselves up, and learn from them, overcome together, and move on. Bad attitudes only breeds resentment and eventual failure of any relationship.

The perfect person does not exist, we all know this. I find that the person who has confidence and pride in themselves becomes more attractive to others, and builds the confidence of others up as well. Nobody wants to be in a relationship with someone they consider a loser in their eyes. There has to be respect, both ways..and that is something that is earned, and also displayed every day in relationships.

Emotional baggage is just that, baggage. It is something that just needs to be truly let go of to be able to go out, and enjoy this vast green and blue marble of ours. It is extremely difficult to start any new relationship with pre-conceived notions that it is doomed to fail, because of previous experiences. Learning from previous downfalls is a good thing, but it should not be applied to every new relationship in such a way that it dooms any chance of succeeding.

My ex-wife was a drunk who spent all of her spare time at bars or partying. She did not start out that way. If I had worried about that when I started dating wife 2.0(much improved version btw) I probably would not have succeeded in our relationship. I moved on, learned and grew a little more. I learned to be more open, responsive, and forgetful. I let go of the past, and it's hold on me. I was able to move forward, and really enjoy what my wife and I have made for each other. Life isn't perfect, but we are aware that it never will be. We as a team compromise, make sacrifices, and also make greater leaps ahead together, because we love and support one another.

If you want to find a partner in life, then you actually have to let go of all of your preconceived notions, and fear, and actually make them you "partner".

A relationship is much like a boat. They are based on compromises you can live with, there is no "perfect". You take care of your boat, and it will take care of you, and vise versa. You get out of it, what you put into it.

[goat]

Geez......you women sure talk a lot. ;^)

One bit of advice that won't be very popular;
Banks, insurance companies, your employer, the government and financial advisors all benefit from you working. If I'd used the retirement planners they provided I'd still be working for at least 15 more years.

You seem pretty smart for a cat. Do it yourself.

Simplify your needs, figure out how much you need per month, add a cushion amount and go.

'Early Retirement Extreme' a website not exactly about retiring, more about simplifying, is one place to start.

My four retirement rules;
1) Never shovel a driveway.
2) Never mow a lawn.
3) Never wear long pants.
4) Never wear socks.
How much does it cost to follow those rules? Less than my retirement income. That's financial planning.

I gotta get this boat cleaned up. Taking two couples and their friend out sailing, snorkeling and whatnot. Think they're trying to set me up. Life's tough.

Good luck to all the single men and women out there, hope you find what you're looking for.

goat (I guess I blab a lot too)

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Sure Maggie there are some single handing women, but lets also be honest with ourselves here...it's a stereotype of a single handing guy because there's a few in every port, marina, anchorage around the cruising fleet. Things become stereotypes usually because they are the base standard example. I can think of 3-4 single handing women I met while out cruising, but dozens and dozens of men. There is no value judgement, misogyny, or patriarchy in that fact...it just is what is. My daughter has her own boat and is a single handing woman live aboard, but she is also not typical of the live aboard fleet. (and no guys....stay away....)

Rich, there are in fact many more single men cruisers than single women cruisers. And many of them are some of the most unhappy people I have encountered in my life. And some of them are as happy as clams too. Those are the facts and these guys seem to be the stereotype of choice. I didn't mean to imply different. What I am reacting to is the what seems to me a bias against some against women doing it at all because of some implied gender difference issues. I could name 3-4 single women but more all women crewed boats I have met. I haven't noticed anything different abut them really except they are outnumbered by the number of men. There actually aren't all that many all long-term men crews either.

FWIW - I really don't think we are all the same, in general. I do think that we each can take what we have and make it work doing all kinds of things that others would think our "group" shouldn't really be doing - male vs female, college-"educated" vs not, white vs any other, religion x vs religion y vs none, and on and on. I'm not trying to be politically correct. I have some major heartburn about how crazy and downright stupid that has become.

So, yes there are more single men than single women with this lifestyle. The pertinence of discussing women is some of the implications by some posters that women don't really like cruising or are not suited for it and that is the reason why single men can't find women who will hook up with them. It's more complicated than that.

[Saleen411]

Geez......you women sure talk a lot.

Goat.......From multiple sources....." It has been claimed that women speak about 20,000 words a day - some 13,000 more than the average man."

Interesting debates on why this is, including the scientifically proven facts on male/ female brain differences and how they are wired.

However, just like any generalization, there are exceptions...THANK GAWD!:big grin:

BTW, no reflection on CHICHI's thoughtful posts.

[exMaggieDrum]

Chichi - There will always be "security" issues. We face them everyday. In the end, we may die broke in some broken down port. But we will have had a far better life than many of our friends who stayed safe on land and die in an assisted living facility. You can always fly home to do that.

But you do bring up something I have seen over and over - it seems more women have said the reason they don't want to go cruising is so they can stay closer to family - grandparents, kids, etc. This has occasionally been brought up by men but for whatever reason not so much. I really envy those who can do both - be on a boat most of the year and then have a place back "home" to go to during cyclone season or the hot season and do all the visiting thing.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Saleen411

Goat.......From multiple sources....." It has been claimed that women speak about 20,000 words a day - some 13,000 more than the average man."

Interesting debates on why this is, including the scientifically proven facts on male/ female brain differences and how they are wired.

However, just like any generalization, there are exceptions...THANK GAWD!:big grin:

BTW, no reflection on CHICHI's thoughtful posts.

Do know that i'm chuckling at this. your comments are well-taken. but please also know that my fingers just fly on the keyboard. words and ideas jump out of them, as if they were some entity of their own. in real life, i am slow to respond, do not have a quick tongue (by any means - i think on things and then come back at a later moment). sometimes, i say nothing at all, am too shy. well, unless i'm really nervous, then i have been known to have a babbling spell. but, i assure you, when the **** hits the fan, i am among those who do not panic, do not say anything, unless it is the thing that needs to be said

cheers mates!

[daw_two]

Originally Posted by Chichi

Do know that i'm chuckling at this. your comments are well-taken. but please also know that my fingers just fly on the keyboard. words and ideas jump out of them, as if they were some entity of their own.

<CUT>

Aha! I sense the cat could be a writer.......What an excellent way to earn extra money while cruising around on a boat. Work calls, so I can't write a long post. I did want to say, Chichi, I have a hunch who you are....I enjoy your posts.....you write so eloquently, and I hope our paths cross in the future .

[Carat]

Originally Posted by zeehag

lorrie--- the cutoff is 55. no work for you if you over 55, even in nursing. and that was 2005. is worse now. i am sooo glad i am not in that fighting for a job market anymore..
so, if you are anywhere n ear 55, just get out of dodge--sail and have fun. screw it.

That could be why so many women, or men, seek a sugar daddy. It's scary thinking of the future without suitable income to survive. I gave up teaching, got certified in personal training, and found out that market is saturated, mostly with people who dieted down to 10-12% bodyfat the wrong way, stepped on stage at a local bodybuilding show, and are now experts in fitness.
Goat...I like your retirement rules. I told myself when my house sells (and omg the waiting is almost unbearable), hopefully sooner than later, that I will never mow another lawn, never take another leaf, never shovel a driveway and never suffer a miserable winter ever again. This means no long pants plus no shoes needed. Financial planning is key, most definitely.

[a64pilot]

From a financial planning perspective.
I don’t see what your sex and whether or not your sailing has anything to do with it? It’s simply a matter of I need X amount of money for X number of years, or is there something I’m missing here?
If you retire early as I did, you need way more money as the time frame you need it is greater, and that time frame makes more difference than you would think.
You do one of two things in my opinion
1. Work and save until the money available meets the amount of money you decide you need a month to live on.
2. You decide I’m retiring in xxxx year, and I’m going to find a way to live on whatever income I will have then

My opinion is once you Retire and have been for even a short period, forget going back to work, don’t figure that into your plan. First most likely due to age and being unemployed for an extended period and other considerations, your likely not competitive, unless it’s basic simple employment you seek, like a part time job working at Lowe’s or West Marine or similar.
I don’t think I could return to work, OK I could, but suspect that I would hate it worse than I did before Retirement, now that I have had a taste of freedom, be tough to lose it.

For those that complain that modern times are different and it’s plain that the concept of Marriage is no longer viable and should be scrapped, that’s pure bunk. Possibly what has changed is people used to get married for better or worse, now they marry until something better becomes available.
However there is a tremendous amount of press that for some reason does indeed try to show that people are not meant to be together, in fact it’s unhealthy etc.
I don’t buy into that, do not understand the agenda, perhaps it’s as simple as misery loves company?

The only truly healthy relationship is whatever works for that couple.
My relationship I am sure would not be considered healthy by the new way of thinking as we do segregate our jobs along mutually agreeable lines that are pretty stereotypical. However I feel pretty sure if you asked her when I was not around, she would tell you she wants it that way, she has no interest in picking up the heavy things, or fixing the broken engine.
However I do want her to eventually learn to helm the Boat, it just makes no sense to me for her to be on the bow with the line, when I’m back at the helm. Line handling is “grunt” work, and grunt work is my responsibility.

With all this talk of equality, guys don’t forget when you take her out to open the door for her, and comment on how nice she looks. Equality has its place, so does old fashioned values.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

From a financial planning perspective.
I don’t see what your sex and whether or not your sailing has anything to do with it? It’s simply a matter of I need X amount of money for X number of years, or is there something I’m missing here?
If you retire early as I did, you need way more money as the time frame you need it is greater, and that time frame makes more difference than you would think.
You do one of two things in my opinion
1. Work and save until the money available meets the amount of money you decide you need a month to live on.
2. You decide I’m retiring in xxxx year, and I’m going to find a way to live on whatever income I will have then

My opinion is once you Retire and have been for even a short period, forget going back to work, don’t figure that into your plan. First most likely due to age and being unemployed for an extended period and other considerations, your likely not competitive, unless it’s basic simple employment you seek, like a part time job working at Lowe’s or West Marine or similar.
I don’t think I could return to work, OK I could, but suspect that I would hate it worse than I did before Retirement, now that I have had a taste of freedom, be tough to lose it.

For those that complain that modern times are different and it’s plain that the concept of Marriage is no longer viable and should be scrapped, that’s pure bunk. Possibly what has changed is people used to get married for better or worse, now they marry until something better becomes available.
However there is a tremendous amount of press that for some reason does indeed try to show that people are not meant to be together, in fact it’s unhealthy etc.
I don’t buy into that, do not understand the agenda, perhaps it’s as simple as misery loves company?

The only truly healthy relationship is whatever works for that couple.
My relationship I am sure would not be considered healthy by the new way of thinking as we do segregate our jobs along mutually agreeable lines that are pretty stereotypical. However I feel pretty sure if you asked her when I was not around, she would tell you she wants it that way, she has no interest in picking up the heavy things, or fixing the broken engine.
However I do want her to eventually learn to helm the Boat, it just makes no sense to me for her to be on the bow with the line, when I’m back at the helm. Line handling is “grunt” work, and grunt work is my responsibility.

With all this talk of equality, guys don’t forget when you take her out to open the door for her, and comment on how nice she looks. Equality has its place, so does old fashioned values.

Hi A64, your entitled to your opinions, and others views (including mine) might be "bunk" but one could also say your views are needed to justify your own position? How could they not be? The reality is marriage doesn't work for alot of people in our modern world, it does for some but certainly fails miserably for many.
I often wonder how many long term couples would stay together if they received a get out of jail free card, if they could be completely honest with no detrimental consequences, no financial pain, no kid pain, no peer pain.... just shake hands and move on pain free!

People don't like questioning the norm particularly in emotionally charged areanas like marriage, it hits a nerve, and brings up insecurities and fear.

If your happy in your relationship fantastic, I'm happy for you. I realise their are couples that a blissfully happy, BUT their are many couples that stay together in unhealthy, and unhappy relationships because they don't want to pay the cost that comes with splitting.... few of them will be truthful about it.

[daletournier]

Hi Chi chi, regarding investment advice everyone has an opinion. I'm not a fan of financial planners.
Personally I believe income returning real estate in decent locations, preferably debt free is best. Valuations can go up and down but your income keeps coming in and is usually adjusted for cpi. People get very focused on capital gain, IMO cash flow is the important thing, this is what puts food in your mouth.
Cash flow is very important, and lump sums dwindle down faster than expected.
Ken in other threads has mentioned cruising 6mths of the year and working 6mths, I think this is a very good option.
I may eventually work a couple of months a year, a change is good, gets me off the boat, different environment and some extra pocket money.

[goat]

Marriage means 'I love you so much that we need to get the government and church involved.'

goat

[john61ct]

Just like "family" these days, marriage means whatever we want it to.

Ideally in a given union, that meaning would be mutually known to all partners involved.

Many very successful relationships are established on less fleeting and fickle foundations than romantic feelings.

To me, the institution of marriage is only useful for legal or financial reasons.

A "successful" marriage does not have to be defined by how long it lasts, nor by adherence to society's expectations of what a "normal" one might look like.

[gamayun]

Wow, this thread took on legs! The OP hasn't posted since late 2015, shortly after he started it. Now it's 47 pages later. It curious to me why single men and single women on boats seem to be such a hot topic of conversation. Personally, I think coupled humans are just jealous of our freedom