Security - What do You Do ?

[micah719]

Lol, of course it was meant to be pointed up and metal-fragmentless. Wassa matta, ya doan truss mee??!

Ok, fair point, developing the Flarestorm (tm) would be pricey....

But it got me thinking; instead of the very launcher at the end of a stick, how about just mounting the very launcher in the deck? That means you can operate it from below deck and it's easily accessible to you at all times. Downside is the sneaky character that sticks a potato in it and then you try to fire the flare....but then, how many would-be boarders come armed with potatoes?

[David_Old_Jersey]

What folks seem to want when it comes to "the Best" solution (in Security and much else) is really the cheapest and laziest.

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

I put forward the following points interested to explore others ideas that may be added.

Secure/lockable: Hatches should have a removable bar inside preventing easy entry. Windscoops should be setup to provide breeze, Rain? Well they gonna be shut!

Unless anchoring off downtown Mogadishu, then IMO that covers 100% of problems. For 90% it means that folks won't be getting down below whilst you sleep - for the other 10% it means you will be awake before they are standing over you with the weapon of their choice. How you deal with that 10% is then your choice. Surrender / Negotiate / Flee / Fight (select according to taste and armoury!).........exactly the same approach as most folks do at home or on holiday (does anyone leave Hotel room door unlocked, let alone wide open? - no matter how posh the hotel).


In addition, IMO a simple willingness to send people off to meet the deity of their choice and an ability to thereafter sleep soundly is also useful. Notwithstanding that, most intruders won't be after killin' ya - but my view is that if someone can't take a joke then they shouldn't have turned up uninivited. YMMV .

[Usagi]

I believe my post and the replies make one thing very clear. If you are attacked, it is likely that at least some of your neighbors will make fun of you and perhaps even toss popcorn at you.

Yes many people from the US will find what happened to me to be unbelievable. It DID happen. There are court records to prove it. Perhaps some may have misread "county" for "country" I was ordered by the court to leave Monroe County, (Florida Keys) not the US.

Florida has a mandatory 10 year sentence for any crime committed with a firearm. That was the threat used in this case. This happened in the late 1990's and I can't remember what the original charge was. Anyways, I was informed that three people in the boat equals a mandatory 30 years, in plain English, the rest of my life. I wanted a jury trial because I did not believe any jury would find me guilty. But risk 30 years on that belief? Would you risk a 30 year jail sentence? I was offered a bench trial to the lesser charge of improper display. I was allowed to plead innocent but a judge not a jury would decide. She found me guilty and ordered me out of Monroe County, at the request of the prosecutor.

At that time I was poor and had to settle for a public defender. That is just about the same as no Atty. It became very clear very quickly that the prosecutor and the public defender were drinking buddies. This brings to light one other thing I learned about American justice: you get as much justice in the US as you can afford to buy and not one bit more.

My point is this: if this can happen in the US, then what would happen in another country where guns are less favorably seen? I have owned a gun since I was 12. I served in the US military. I very obviously know how to use a weapon properly. But I am now honestly afraid to have a gun. And yes I am po'd at those who did this to me. So I am happy to read the alternatives for self-protection. But what would I do if forced? I'd do what I have to do with whatever weapon is left to me, carefully clean up any evidence, put weights on the body and clear out of Dodge immediately.

Those who want to throw popcorn at me or make fun, enjoy yourselves but you are people who I would not want as neighbors in any anchorage.

[micah719]

I suppose we could bicker about whether or not you should have hauled out the artillery but seeing we have little info on the incident, it would be silly.

But based on what we already have, it would seem you were hard done by, since a) the three boarders were sufficiently alive to complain and b) they weren't charged with trespassing.

It further serves to suggest an anti-boarding net as a physical barrier that would make boarding exceedingly difficult, and also gives you more options before resorting to the ultima ratio regis.

Climbing a difficult-to-cut net while someone is performing a proctology exam on you with a boathook would look a whole lot worse for the boarder in court than what the scumbags got away with in your case.

As to popcorn and stuff...I'd be happy to anchor next to you any day, but I'll be approaching your floating property with care and respect. As it should be...

[minaret]

Originally Posted by micah719

I suppose we could bicker about whether or not you should have hauled out the artillery but seeing we have little info on the incident, it would be silly.

But based on what we already have, it would seem you were hard done by, since a) the three boarders were sufficiently alive to complain and b) they weren't charged with trespassing.

It further serves to suggest an anti-boarding net as a physical barrier that would make boarding exceedingly difficult, and also gives you more options before resorting to the ultima ratio regis.

Climbing a difficult-to-cut net while someone is performing a proctology exam on you with a boathook would look a whole lot worse for the boarder in court than what the scumbags got away with in your case.

As to popcorn and stuff...I'd be happy to anchor next to you any day, but I'll be approaching your floating property with care and respect. As it should be...

I totally buy Usagi's posts. I think you may be confused about the legal status of a live aboard vessel. In most places it's just a vehicle, not your home. So to the cops this is akin to brandishing a weapon out the window of your car, not defending your living room. To most cops living aboard a large boat of any type is an alien concept, you say boat and they automatically operate under the assumption that it's a small speedboat. Trying to enlighten them will only anger them in most cases. There have been a number of threads here in the past about the intricacies of the legality of having a gun on your boat in the US. It's not as simple as most think, because as I said your boat is legally not the same as your home in most places, it's a vehicle. This means you need to follow the laws for transporting a firearm in a vehicle, which state that said firearm cannot be loaded, and that weapon and ammunition can not be stored near each other, in most jurisdictions. This makes having a weapon aboard more hassle than good in the US as well as most anywhere else. Don't give the man a reason to hassle you, unless you keep a proper ships weapons locker with the appropriate docs you could be asking for a lot of trouble, even without a brandishing charge.

[Usagi]

@minaret
The term the prosecutor used was "conveyance." He declared, "It is not a home. It is a conveyance." At this point I looked at him like you would look at a person with three heads... in total disbelief. I simply could not believe that you must allow people to corner you inside a 30' sailboat and not be expected to defend yourself.

Anyways I'm not looking for sympathy. The point is to warn people that your second amendment rights don't have the ironclad guarantee that some might believe they have.

[Ballenxj]

Usagi, if things truly went down as you say they did, then this was a travesty & miscarriage of justice in a big way. I suppose we would have had to have been there. Did you retain an attorney? If not, you probably should have.
I have read somewhere that if your boat has a galley & head, it can be written off as a second home. That setting a president, I would think that a competent attorney could have argued that the boat was your home, and you were in your right to defend yourself there.
-Bruce

[Usagi]

@Ballenxj
I believe that you are right about declaring a boat to be a home. However that is for tax purposes ONLY and doesn't apply to defending yourself or any other laws. Many if not most prosecutors don't care a wit about justice. It's just a game and you're spending 30 years in prison doesn't mean a thing to them.

As for Atty, I explained. At that time I was more concerned about where my next meal was coming from, never mind affording an Atty. This is real life not a TV show where you get a dedicated public defender who will actually help. In real life having a public defender is essentially the same as having no Atty at all. Bluntly, he's there purely for show and to satisfy the legal requirement that you be represented.

The legal point of view goes something like this. Those who are brought to trial are USUALLY guilty. If it gets as far as trial, you are probably guilty and are probably assumed to be guilty. Most in fact are. Most are scumbags. Never mind what you have been taught; that you are innocent until proven guilty. Again, this is real life and what you have been taught is totally wrong.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Usagi

@minaret
The term the prosecutor used was "conveyance." He declared, "It is not a home. It is a conveyance." At this point I looked at him like you would look at a person with three heads... in total disbelief. I simply could not believe that you must allow people to corner you inside a 30' sailboat and not be expected to defend yourself.

Anyways I'm not looking for sympathy. The point is to warn people that your second amendment rights don't have the ironclad guarantee that some might believe they have.

Having read most of the threads on this subject for some years, the conclusion I've formed is that like most things legal it will come down to the agents of the law at hand and their discretion. It seems that in many jurisdictions your boat may be legally considered your home when it's tied to the dock, but under way or on the hook it's a vehicle. Ie, your legal status as a home is tied to a slip and it's physical address rather than a boat. The moment you leave that slip you are just a vehicle like any car, and the pertinent laws apply. This appears to not be true everywhere, but I tend to err on the side of caution, because the stakes are high. If you are boarded by the CG while under way or at anchor, and you have a loaded firearm not locked in to a registered weapons locker, you may find yourself in deep trouble if they are having a bad day. If local law enforcement somehow become involved, as in Usagi's case, the odds of this go way up.

[Lagoon4us]

Usagi i commiserate with you and can understand you copping it due to stupid technicalities and that's exactly what the majority don't understand.

Your experience was in your own country and justice was denied and the threat of an even bigger stick was used.

Make that a foreign country and let's also say the flag you fly isn't popular there and your problems are compounded big time.

The point you make regarding that "if you are bought to trial then it's likely you are guilty" carries much weight and more so in foreign ports, in most cases your defence is the police are lying or manipulating the facts, BUT you were found with a gun the argument now becomes 'Why did you not declare the gun'? Game set and match.

Far better to have detection, a method of drawing attention and security. And the biggie is always to not make yourself an easy target. Knives, winch handles, swords and Vo5 can be weapons of last defence.

Thank you for your invaluable contribution, Minaret points to are very valid.

Cheers Frank

[CarinaPDX]

Many countries consider swords in the same category as firearms: lethal weapons. Machetes (spanish word) are called cutlasses in the English-speaking islands, and are usually considered swords. As for the dual-use argument: no one expects a yachtie to be cutting sugar cane or clearing jungle. Good luck with that. It is true that very few yachts are ever searched for weapons, and no doubt in many cases a machete might not draw attention. But attack an intruder with one and you may find a sudden interest in your lethal weapons. In many parts of the world non-lethal weapons are also prohibited; I had pepper spray confiscated entering the UK, and I would expect that stun guns or tasers would also have been taken.

Better to consider other dual-use items, like flares, dry powder fire extinguishers, and winch handles. I have a piece of pipe I use with the anchor windlass, which would be pretty nasty as well. Still, none of this would be wise to bring to a gunfight...

Greg

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Many countries consider swords in the same category as firearms: lethal weapons. Machetes (spanish word) are called cutlasses in the English-speaking islands, and are usually considered swords. As for the dual-use argument: no one expects a yachtie to be cutting sugar cane or clearing jungle. Good luck with that.
....
Greg

Swords on board do have a dual use - slashing the top off bottles of bubbly. A skill I have that is frequently utilized on board

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Many countries consider swords in the same category as firearms: lethal weapons. Machetes (spanish word) are called cutlasses in the English-speaking islands, and are usually considered swords. As for the dual-use argument: no one expects a yachtie to be cutting sugar cane or clearing jungle...

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

... I got out the machete today for a little chopping job, and reminded myself how sharp that sucker is! I remember walking around with the machete in my hand in the third world somewhere. It was like night and day how the locals treated me-- I was no longer a tourist--I was one of the boys.

Machetes can be very useful aboard a boat. For instance, they’re almost* essential in opening coconuts.

*Two Ways to Harvest and Consume Water from a Coconut:

METHOD ONE:
1. Go ask the nearest local to borrow a machete (every household has one).
2. Take the machete and begin hacking randomly at the coconut.
3. Hand the machete to the local who has just appeared out of the wood work and offered to do it for you.
4. Smile and say thank-you.
5. Drink.

METHOD TWO:
1. Buy a machete.
2. Buy a coconut.
3. Hang the machete on the wall as a kind of decorative object.
4. Set coconut aside.
5. Go to fridge and grab the small carton of coconut water that you previously purchased at, say, Whole Foods.
6. Drink.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Machetes can be very useful aboard a boat. For instance, they’re almost* essential in opening coconuts.

*Two Ways to Harvest and Consume Water from a Coconut:

METHOD ONE:
1. Go ask the nearest local to borrow a machete (every household has one).
2. Take the machete and begin hacking randomly at the coconut.
3. Hand the machete to the local who has just appeared out of the wood work and offered to do it for you.
4. Smile and say thank-you.
5. Drink.

METHOD TWO:
1. Buy a machete.
2. Buy a coconut.
3. Hang the machete on the wall as a kind of decorative object.
4. Set coconut aside.
5. Go to fridge and grab the small carton of coconut water that you previously purchased at, say, Whole Foods.
6. Drink.

In PNG if you don't carry a machete you just don't get far, undergrowth grows behind you i swear..... good post Gord

[Usagi]

I am tending to favor defensive strategies. I had intended to install a net on the lifelines to keep my bunnies in (see my other thread). I hadn't seen it as a defensive measure. It's cool that it can be improved by rigging it to an alarm system. I believe most scumbags don't like sirens and floodlights. Both are in my plans.

I'm not impressed with swords or even machetes, too hard to use in close quarters but they would be usable on deck. My favored weapon was a sawed off shotgun, to legal limits, of course. It can disable a few boarders if they are grouped and even in a confusion it is hard to miss. That was what got me in trouble, an old sawed off Stevens single shot.

Last time I heard the cops wanted to talk up me I went in to the station like a barefooted pilgrim and asked what was the problem and I explained that I was simply defending myself. Well I've related the result of my naïveté Next time, if there is one, I'll bury the body