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Old 06-11-2012, 00:02   #241
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

ok, my 2 cents.

I happen to know a LOT more about defense than I do about sailing. I've spent my whole life dealing with defense. I just started sailing last year and now I'm taking off sailing around the world and I don't have the luxury of the means and methods that are available to me in the US and in different war-zones I've been deployed to.

Security is always a primary concern to me. It has been for the past 20+ years due to my profession and always will be because its now just part of my nature.

Guns just give people a "sense" of security. I own guns. I've used guns. I've been in just about every type of "situation" imaginable in both armed and un-armed conflict.

There are about 1000+ steps one can take to minimize the chance of ever needing to resort to weapons combat. Using a gun as your primary means of defense is like using a formula one racecar to go to the store.

Situational awareness, passive means of security, active means of security, less than lethal weapons, deterrents, etc.

I realize I can't go into foriegn countries with an M4 with a M203 40mm grenade launcher and 80 mm mortars and Stinger missiles are usually frowned upon. So I take other precautions to ensure the safety of me, my crew, and my beloved boat and possessions.

First: think about where you are going, get as much info on the security threat in that area and develop the necessary action plans.

Second: take steps to reduce your target signature (i.e. don't be the rich American handing out free coloring books and clothes to the local poor because you think it will make you some kind of saint that no one will have the heart to threaten (it makes you a target). Also don't go around dressed like a rich guy or pull ut whads of cash or give generous tips. (This just makes you look like a good, fat, target.)

Third: Secure your sh*t. Lock it up and make sure you and your boat look secure. Make the bad guys think its a hard target and not worth the effort.

Fourth: If the bad guys decide to make a try for you make sure they have a bad time. I have a loud-ass alarm that can be activated in the cabin or the cockpit. I have a motion detector that alrms in my birth. My companion way has a security grate "stainless steel" that i fabricated that can only be unlocked from inside. I have 2 cans of bear-spray mounted in the cabin. I have a "ZAP-Light"which is a very bright LED flashlight which will blind a "tango" and it is also a 1,000,000 volt stun-gun ($56 at Bass-Pro).

Failing all of that, I have an 18" peice of 3/4 steel pipe that I can beat the hell out of them with. That 3/4" pipe also holds a 12 guage shell perfectly. I have another piece of pipe that slides over it with an end-cap that has a screw in it.
I keep 12 guage (No. 6 shot and 4 shot) 2-3/4" shells mixed in with my 12 guage flares and a few other slugs and 00 buck hidden.

The bang stick is a LAST resort that is reserved to rid the world of the worst vermin I expect to meet. I doubt I'll never need it because I do everything I can to AVOID the situation. But, my arse is covered.

I'm not paranoid and I'm not a gun nut. I just respect my life and that of my crew and I want to keep what's mine. With that said, I don't go where there are a bunch of bad guys, I don't make myself a target, I make sure everyone can see that my boat is secure, and I have means to reduce the threat before the situation becomes lethal.

Most sailors are very resouceful and most put a lot of time and effort into planning and prevention when it comes to sailing. Just put the same time and effort into your situational security and you'll be fine.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:44   #242
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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I am a very well armed liberal who likes to shoot deer, geese, etc. and eat them

But having a gun on a boat is a pain right in the ass if you go anywhere other than the USA. We are the only country I have ever been to where it is OK to wander around with rifles and pistols at the ready. Everywhere else they put you in jail for doing that. Whatever security you may feel from being armed is completely wiped out by the insecurity of wondering if the next cop you see will find your gun and end up putting you in jail. Jail really sucks. Nuff said.
And there is the Kernal of this debate, and why this debate has no relevance outside the US, Given the few US foreign going sailors there are , I suspect that amongst those, this view is the reality.

Guns on boats isnt a debate, its a restatement of an unusual aspect of US life compared to everyone else. Its a closed debate soley for Americans , sailing in America. ( where , I personally believe, fear of attack has warped peoples frame of reference).


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Old 06-11-2012, 03:25   #243
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

Flink - good post

goboatingnow - Agreed, with some exceptions. More than a few Americans travel afar with their guns, sometimes declared but often not. Most just don't ever talk about it. Also, I saw quite a few Venezuelans with firearms aboard their boats, and was even lectured by one that I was a fool for not being armed. Which is to say that while this issue is commonly associated with the US it does extend quite a bit further. And gun owners' unwillingness to leave their guns behind is often stronger than respect for other's laws.

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Old 06-11-2012, 03:55   #244
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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Flink - good post

goboatingnow - Agreed, with some exceptions. More than a few Americans travel afar with their guns, sometimes declared but often not. Most just don't ever talk about it. Also, I saw quite a few Venezuelans with firearms aboard their boats, and was even lectured by one that I was a fool for not being armed. Which is to say that while this issue is commonly associated with the US it does extend quite a bit further. And gun owners' unwillingness to leave their guns behind is often stronger than respect for other's laws.

Greg

Well, with the lack of any hard statistics. I wouldnt agree, that many ( leaving aside some SA countries) ,outside of the US, are carrying firearms and not declaring them. Especially into well run/well policed jurisdictions. The penalties are just way too big to consider that course of action and I suspect very few in reality do. Not declaring a firearm is a gun-running offense and the penalties in many countries are simply huge, even carrying a few shotgun cartridges is the same issue.

Really this question is a bit like asking a man how many times he has had sex, the answer is invariably inflated. Pro-gun advocates tend to both inflate the reasons for carrying firearms , ie the world is a bad place type of stuff and tend to express the view that more people have them then the evidence suggests. ( outside US and in sailing context)

Certainly on this side of the pond its a very very rare experience, One that I personally know , that gets officials into quite a lather in some places, as they dust off old regulations as they glare at you to just go away.!

I mean, I had reason to drop some out of date flares into my local police station, some years ago ( as the rules suggest I can), They called the army bomb disposal squad!!!.

I target shoot and travel occasionally around Europe by air with them , Jeepers the paperwork in some cases!!!. I have had one occasion to declare them on a boat , Never again.

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And gun owners' unwillingness to leave their guns behind is often stronger than respect for other's laws.
I think thats a view rather then an action, The US gun lobby in particular ( I lived and owned guns there for a while) is full of self defense macho types, yet few if any have ever used a gun in anger against another human. The debate is characterized by chest thumping ( the " no-one is taken me down" argument) to over hyping the dangers ( The " what you do, wimp!, when they're raping you wife/daugther/mother" etc etc). ANd , in fairness, given the US history and the role personal weapons guns played, I fully understand the US pro-gun point of view. Elsewhere, most publics, want guns of all types removed from society, both illegal and legal, failing that they want them out of sight and severely restricted.

The pro-gun argument. on a boat, outside US, can only be justified by creating the perception that the environment is hostile and that where criminality occurs it descends into armed conflict and extreme bodily harm. Yet the accident/incidents reports show that this is a rare, almost non-existent type of attack , outside a specific set of locations, where really you have no place to be anyway . Its more then likely that those arguing for armed protection will never sail to those places anyway, SO their arguments are based on the US coastline states. ( given us all the impression that the US is a war-zone BTW, )

The reality is that firearms aboard a small leisure vessel are virtually useless. represent as much danger to those aboard , and require arduous and complex declaration procedures in most countries.

Long range cruising, taking normal personal safety precautions, common sense and avoiding trouble spots, is a extremely safe and rewarding activity. Guns have no place, or no purpose, in that scenario. Every thing else is a advocacy debate .


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Old 06-11-2012, 04:00   #245
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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Failing all of that, I have an 18" peice of 3/4 steel pipe that I can beat the hell out of them with. That 3/4" pipe also holds a 12 guage shell perfectly. I have another piece of pipe that slides over it with an end-cap that has a screw in it.

I keep 12 guage (No. 6 shot and 4 shot) 2-3/4" shells mixed in with my 12 guage flares and a few other slugs and 00 buck hidden.
Folks must do whatever they comfortable with (guns or hugs ......no sweat off my nose either way)........but just to highlight that simply having the ammo (let alone a "bang stick") could be enough in some places to get you into the same sort of trouble with officialdom as having a gun onboard - where not declared and then discovered.

and whilst this thread has been resurrected......one thing that never gets discussed is clean up . People going splat or squelch is messy.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:37   #246
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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Failing all of that, I have an 18" peice of 3/4 steel pipe that I can beat the hell out of them with. That 3/4" pipe also holds a 12 guage shell perfectly. I have another piece of pipe that slides over it with an end-cap that has a screw in it.
I keep 12 guage (No. 6 shot and 4 shot) 2-3/4" shells mixed in with my 12 guage flares and a few other slugs and 00 buck hidden.

.
Have you actually tried firing those, do you have all your fingers?

Seems a lock inside ones companionway is a lot less trouble and a lot safer.
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Old 06-11-2012, 05:01   #247
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

For those that feel a gun gives them greater safety - you'll never convince them otherwise.

It's not worth trying. We'll have more luck discussing anchors (go Rocna! dump CQR), or Hunters (in europe Bavarias).

The above subjects also tend to get the juices flowing.

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Old 06-11-2012, 05:29   #248
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

ok here is a non theoretical problem.
you are cruising a stelie in mexico. you are anchored in a designated anchorage with many lights--masthead, and many cockpit lights so pangas dont hit in dark.
you go to sleep.
a sudden eathquake feeling hits you. you get out of bed to find your cockpit has been HEAVILY damaged by a huge catamaran with a screaming drunk at the wheel declaring your boat the cause of the incident.
what securrity measures will prevent this. obviously, many gringos do not drive boats sober, as this at is an example. the stainless steel cable that goes from ama to ama on the cat has damaged your boat incredibly much--taken out the radar, binnacle, davits, all inside cockpit--wheel--everything--at 5 kts. without stopping.
aside from going to port captain and having the drunk/drugged driver jailed, what would you actually DO about this.......
my friend is going to speak with the driver today when he is hopefully sober---but i think there willb a catamaran sans owner very soon, and a cat owner wondering why he is in jail, when that damned anchored boat came out of nowhere to hit him..
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:18   #249
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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aside from going to port captain and having the drunk/drugged driver jailed, what would you actually DO about this.......
my friend is going to speak with the driver today when he is hopefully sober---but i think there willb a catamaran sans owner very soon, and a cat owner wondering why he is in jail, when that damned anchored boat came out of nowhere to hit him..
1) Contact own insurance company (they have bigger lawyers than self)
2) Find out what the legal position is locally (even at the cost of putting hand in own pocket, with no guarantee of re-imbursement).......and for that I would add a local lawyer onto any internet advice (no matter that the latter will likely be useful to at least get a handle of questions to ask of own lawyer).
3) Try and prevent the vessel / Skipper from fleeing the country (both legally and in practical terms).
4) Keep copies of every bit of paperwork and a written record of events as they unfold.

Likely that the above will include reporting the incident to local officialdom formally - how much use / how much they care probably dependent on the locale . Aside from the formal legal side, also ascertain what is considered "grey" in your locale and how much the private enterprise culture interacts with the public sector and whether that can be used to assist / motivate officialdom. in your favour.

5) Keep fingers crossed that the other boat is insured.
6) Depending on the numbers involved (and the impact on self) decide whether dealing with an estate is the easier option - and consider whether how to deal with other party thinking the same.

Certainly having a chat with the other Skipper would be very useful, take witnesses and don't expect a cheque. But nonetheless an opportunity to suck out information about the incident, including who onboard and events preceeding. I would also ask around about the Skipper for anything that might be useful.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:37   #250
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

Hey there,

Here's my two cents. I use a motion detector in the cabin and three, yes three, dogs (all strays that picked us up along the way). Two big uns that are lazy as hell and sleep all day and night, plus a little one that scares nobody with his high-pitched yapping, but he does wake up the mean fellas and they check out who is who. No I don't stay in marinas and I guess we would not be welcome there. LOL.
I don't carry firearms because it is illegal where I cruise, but I do have a very scary pneumatic speargun.
I have found the biggest problem is sneak thieves, often people you have invited aboard, so I buy expensive looking cameras that don't work, dirt cheap and any camera repair shop has a big box full of them, I leave one of these on top of the fridge (ca)and it is surprising how often they disappear. It seems most thieves just want to steal something quick and get out ASAP. The only drawback with this is I don't get to see the look on their faces when they try to sell them.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:48   #251
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

as far as boat entry--i have experienced none of that--and i dont have locks as yet--
this damage thing was a blatant hit an drunk effort on the part of a donkey who feels only need to destroy other folks's stuff. he didnt hang around for exchange if info, of course-- and the victim is broker than am i.
pix of damages are being taken this am. the cat disappeared from anchorage at la cruz to points unknown as yet---
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:03   #252
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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and whilst this thread has been resurrected......one thing that never gets discussed is clean up . People going splat or squelch is messy.
There's always the carpet cleaners.....
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:56   #253
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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Hey there,

Here's my two cents. I use a motion detector in the cabin and three, yes three, dogs (all strays that picked us up along the way). Two big uns that are lazy as hell and sleep all day and night, plus a little one that scares nobody with his high-pitched yapping, but he does wake up the mean fellas and they check out who is who. No I don't stay in marinas and I guess we would not be welcome there. LOL.
I don't carry firearms because it is illegal where I cruise, but I do have a very scary pneumatic speargun.
I have found the biggest problem is sneak thieves, often people you have invited aboard, so I buy expensive looking cameras that don't work, dirt cheap and any camera repair shop has a big box full of them, I leave one of these on top of the fridge (ca)and it is surprising how often they disappear. It seems most thieves just want to steal something quick and get out ASAP. The only drawback with this is I don't get to see the look on their faces when they try to sell them.
I don't want to upset anyone, but I sincerely hope I never have to sail in the waters where you are. I have been in some very odd places, and had some strange people on my boat; my judgement is not perfect, but I have never been such a target as you seem to have been. Buying busted gear to satisfy your light fingered guests....? Where the heck are you sailing that you encounter this 'big problem'?
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:12   #254
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
ok here is a non theoretical problem.
you are cruising a stelie in mexico. you are anchored in a designated anchorage with many lights--masthead, and many cockpit lights so pangas dont hit in dark.
you go to sleep.
a sudden eathquake feeling hits you. you get out of bed to find your cockpit has been HEAVILY damaged by a huge catamaran with a screaming drunk at the wheel declaring your boat the cause of the incident.
what securrity measures will prevent this. obviously, many gringos do not drive boats sober, as this at is an example. the stainless steel cable that goes from ama to ama on the cat has damaged your boat incredibly much--taken out the radar, binnacle, davits, all inside cockpit--wheel--everything--at 5 kts. without stopping.
aside from going to port captain and having the drunk/drugged driver jailed, what would you actually DO about this.......
my friend is going to speak with the driver today when he is hopefully sober---but i think there willb a catamaran sans owner very soon, and a cat owner wondering why he is in jail, when that damned anchored boat came out of nowhere to hit him..

And this has to do with security..............
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:45   #255
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Re: Security - What do You Do ?

Of course. Mine the approaches to the anchorage....no cat crash problem. No annoying intruders at all, daring to come anchor in your private anchorage. Probably have a certain window of time free of customs and immigration as well. Mined you, cats have shallow draft and low magnetic signatures, so you'll need to have some pretty nifty fusing, else you'll be pasting every pelican and seagull across the sky, and then micah the seabirdtamer will come and Osprey your wig off.

As to guns...yes, the "g" word, gungunsgunsguns........someone with a gun is difficult to rob, assault, rape, murder. Or stick in a concentration camp oven. The most dangerous guns are government guns, as the bloodsoaked history of the last century shows. It's why a certain country even made it part of their law, to keep the government honest. Well, that's gone by the board, as predicted by the very folks that made those laws way back when. If you're a cruiser and have one....keep it to yourself, and be wise. If you haven't....there are other ways to enhance defence, but none as good. And if you have decided to not protect yourself, be ashamed...you're the bait that encourages the scum to rob folks.
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