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Old 02-12-2011, 16:30   #46
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

It seems pretty clear that different members here have had different experiences. And their strong opinion is going to be based on that.

However, it doesn't make one right or wrong in relaying to us their particular experience and outcome. What happened, happened.
It's more likely a reflection of the competence or otherwise of the particular entry port.

It may also be in the detail of the way the member presented their circumstances to the authorities that achieved different treatment.

That would be almost impossible to compare, but it would be great if we could...
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:22   #47
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
For your information I have Imported two yachts to Australia and have helped with others, I have personally seen what happens when an Australian Citizen sailed to Oz with his new boat with Uk Reg...he was refused a cruising permit and was given 6 weeks to remove the vessel or import it.
This goes to show that it is can be legal for an Australian Citizen to have a foreign registered vessel. If it was not, then they would not have been the option to remove it. Instead they would have been charged with an offence.

The law does make it clear that an Aussie can get a cruising permit, but the onus is on the owner to prove that they are resident in another country, not just that they are not resident in Aus.
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Old 03-12-2011, 17:29   #48
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Not entirely correct Mr B.

Each state is different and has it own requirements.

For instance, in Western Australia, pleasure craft that do not have an engine are NOT required to be registered. Quoting from the WA transport department "If your boat has a motor, or is fitted for one, it must be registered with the Department and is subject to an annual registration fee. Yachts, canoes, surf skis and other craft without motors and not fitted to carry one, are not required to be registered."

And in the Northern Territory, there is NO registration requirements; quoting from the NT Transport Group "Pleasure craft do not require registration and operators are not required to hold a licence to drive a pleasure craft. "

And in Tasmania, it seems that the boat ONLY requires registration if it has an engine of 4HP or greater.

However as posted elsewhere, any of the above vessels MAY be placed on the Australian Shipping register if the owner so wishes (or wants to depart for a foreign port).
Thanks for the clarification.
I was only going on my Gemini.
My 14 foot Paper Tiger is not registered as It doesnt have a motor or provision for one.
I forgot about that one.

Mr B.
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Old 03-12-2011, 17:33   #49
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
This goes to show that it is can be legal for an Australian Citizen to have a foreign registered vessel. If it was not, then they would not have been the option to remove it. Instead they would have been charged with an offence.
Perhaps but perhaps not. As others have posted, one would need to know the exact details of this occasion. Just as likely the officials decided to be somewhat lenient and gave an option of "take your problem away to someplace where we can't see it" or some such version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
The law does make it clear that an Aussie can get a cruising permit, but the onus is on the owner to prove that they are resident in another country, not just that they are not resident in Aus.
Hoppy, I am not disputing this claim directly but can you point us (me) to any reference in any Aussie Act (or other substantial reference) to support this claim. I have looked around a bit and I have not been able to find any applicable law - yet
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:22   #50
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Hoppy, I am not disputing this claim directly but can you point us (me) to any reference in any Aussie Act (or other substantial reference) to support this claim. I have looked around a bit and I have not been able to find any applicable law - yet
I'll have a look around later. I know i have found it on the customs site or similar. It has been of interest to me as someone who has been non-resident 13 years and have become a citizen of another country in that time and that is where my boat is registered. The thought has crossed my mind to one day take the boat to Aus but just for the 12 months
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:49   #51
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Found it....

For the life of me I can't figure out the direct link to the PDF document or find the page it is linked to, but if you go to the search on Customs home page and look for "Frequently asked questions on temporary importation of goods", you will find a FAQ document.

Quote:
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON TEMPORARY IMPORTATION OF GOODS

1. I am an Australian citizen who lives and works in another country and I wish to temporarily import my yacht, is this possible?

While you maintain your residency overseas and can substantiate that (working visa, passport, utility bills, rental agreements etc) you are entitled to make a temporary importation for a period of up to 12 months under section 162 of the Customs Act 1901 (the Act) providing a security (cash bond or bankers letter of indemnity) or an undertaking to Australian Customs and Border Protection Service (Customs and Border Protection) as determined by Customs.

The security or undertaking will cover the amount of duty and taxes that would be applicable if the yacht had been imported. S.162 of the Act requires that a security or undertaking be lodged before temporary import goods can be cleared for home consumption.

You must lodge an approved form 46 “Application For Permission To Take Delivery Of Goods Upon Giving A Security Or Undertaking The Payment of Duty, GST and LCT”. This form is available at Customs home page
Copies of invoices, packing lists, bill of lading, quarantine certificates and other documents that identify eligibility should be lodged with the application on arrival in Australia at a Customs and Border Protection counter.

NOTE: You may also be entitled to apply for a control permit.
It will be interesting to see how hard it is to prove your foreign residency when different countries interpret it differently.

As far as I can tell, for Sweden as long as I maintain an address (can be a friends place) and have this address registered with the tax office, I will maintain the benefits of being resident there. But I will not have any bills or anything like that.

I will have to find out if a translated copy of the Swedish residency document I can get from the tax office and a Swedish passport will keep Customs happy. But that is something I can worry about much later
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:33   #52
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Found it....

For the life of me I can't figure out the direct link to the PDF document or find the page it is linked to, but if you go to the search on Customs home page and look for "Frequently asked questions on temporary importation of goods", you will find a FAQ document.


It will be interesting to see how hard it is to prove your foreign residency when different countries interpret it differently.

As far as I can tell, for Sweden as long as I maintain an address (can be a friends place) and have this address registered with the tax office, I will maintain the benefits of being resident there. But I will not have any bills or anything like that.

I will have to find out if a translated copy of the Swedish residency document I can get from the tax office and a Swedish passport will keep Customs happy. But that is something I can worry about much later
Thanks for the info Hoppy. You were looking at this?
http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/re...ports-faqs.pdf

OK that covers the requirements of the Customs Act 1901 but doesn't alleviate one of complying with the Shipping Registration Act 1981. Sure is a minefield and who knows who enforces what and when (or even why). I guess Customs is interested in getting any duties but perhaps AMSA (or someone else) doesn't really care where the yacht is registered regardless of section 69 of the above registration act.

Where are the Aussie maritime lawyers on CF when you need 'em.
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:41   #53
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Thanks for the info Hoppy. You were looking at this?
http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/re...ports-faqs.pdf

OK that covers the requirements of the Customs Act 1901 but doesn't alleviate one of complying with the Shipping Registration Act 1981. Sure is a minefield and who knows who enforces what and when (or even why). I guess Customs is interested in getting any duties but perhaps AMSA (or someone else) doesn't really care where the yacht is registered regardless of section 69 of the above registration act.

Where are the Aussie maritime lawyers on CF when you need 'em.
I think the answer to the shipping act may be covered in my post Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

I guess it could be interpreted differently, but to me it sounds like a pleasure boat being not aussie registered is ok. I'm sure if you do a dodgy UK registration or the like, then you will probably get into trouble.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:04   #54
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Go down to the Gold Coast, Sydney or Melbourne, you will see plenty of Australian owned (private) vessels with exotic ports of registration, nothing new or untoward about it. I even used to drive a few in my younger days....

Go talk to a broker that deals internationaly and they will explain it all.....
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:57   #55
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

If you have duel citizenship you may legaly hold registration using your other country eg: UK but as an Australian Citizen you will stillneed to import the vessel.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:52   #56
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

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Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Interesting, Simon....

What does an Aussie do when buying a boat in a foreign port, wants to register it in Aust but cannot satisfy the bureaucratic requirement to show the complete ownership trail back to construction of the vessel?
Hmm... missed this post somehow. Anyway the answer is straightforward, you document as much as you can. You place a notice in the Government Gazette stating that you are intending to register the vessel and for anyone who has an interest in it, that they had better come forward otherwise it will be registered in your name etc etc. You put a notice in the public notices section of the main newspapers in area where the boat is normally kept.

You write a Stat. Dec. explaining the reasonable steps you have taken to trace the history but now can't go any further etc.

You send all this paperwork and evidence of the notices to AMSA and they register it. They used to even give you the proper wording for the ads and notices etc; not sure if they still do that or not.

I have registered two boats this way without a drama. You just have to get all your ducks in a row. When I did it, AMSA was very helpful.
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Old 05-12-2011, 07:52   #57
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Go down to the Gold Coast, Sydney or Melbourne, you will see plenty of Australian owned (private) vessels with exotic ports of registration, nothing new or untoward about it. I even used to drive a few in my younger days....

Go talk to a broker that deals internationaly and they will explain it all.....
OK, lets back up a bit, we (myself included) all know of Aussies who own foreign registered vessels and probably also some who own unregistered vessels (outside Australia), then SimonV posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
If you are an Australian then by international law you must get the boat on the Australian ships register. Failure to do this and you are liable to a $500 p/day fine and no country will allow the boat into their port with out it. when you check in two items they will want to see are the ships registration and your passport if you are the owner they need to match.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
  • It is an offence for an Australian-owned vessel to sail for a foreign port unless it is registered in the Australian Register of Ships.
  • Note: vessels purchased overseas by Australians are also required to be registered before they sail for Australia or another foreign country.
and then along comes beneteau-500 who disagrees with SimonV
Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
simon you are talking a lot of tosspot bull **** you do not have a clue
Now I know that the first points SimonV makes are true but I have never heard of the his last point so I go off and re-read the Shipping Register Act 1981.
It seems that SimonV may be correct even if this flies in the face of what we know is happening.

The only real reference for the legal position is the actual Acts themselves (and how the courts interpret them). My reading of the Shipping Registration Act would support SimonV's claim. The fact that they may be being ignored by many and not enforced is not the issue here. I am trying to find what the actual legal position is, not what everyone is doing.

In a poor analogy it is like say looking at how fast one is one allowed to drive. Everyone I know drives over the speed limit at some time or another. Does this mean that there is no speed limit or that the actual speed limit is higher than what one thinks it is. How do we know what the speed limit is? Do we just look at what speed everyone is doing or ask the car dealer? No, we look at the signposted limit and read the Traffic Act or whatever. Does it matter that everyone is driving faster? Not really, it only matters if the limit is enforced. If it isn't enforced, then no one really cares about driving over the limit but nevertheless the limit remains on the sign and in the traffic act.

Now the Shipping Register Act is mainly designed for commercial shipping and yachts are sort of tacked onto it. Maybe the government doesn't care that much about what Aussie owned yachts are doing in foreign ports; just make sure you are seen to be doing the right thing when you arrive / depart Australia - I don't know but I am trying to find out what the legal position is, especially as it seems to differ from actual practice.

Hoppys point about Customs is well stated and is confirmed by reading the Customs act (1901) but it is only one of the Acts that regulate arriving / departing / taxes on yachts.

Now lets revisit the OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanee View Post
Hi, I'm an Australian Citizen looking at buying a yacht to live-a-board in Asia.

I'm an Australian citizen, and the yacht I'm looking at purchasing is registered in Sweden, but located in Asia. I will not be taking the yacht back to Australia, but will be keeping it in Asia, particularly sailing it around Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines. I understand there is advantages to me in having the boat registered in Australia, but how important is it? If so, should I register it in Victoria (my home state) or just register it under the Australian Maritime Safety Authority Australian Shipping Registration Office

By registering it in Australia, am I liable for import duty or any taxes, despite the fact that the yacht will never enter Australian waters?

Would love some advice on this, thanks.
It would seem that you should register it on the Aussie register and you don't have to pay any import duty or taxes UNLESS you actually arrive in Australia.

Import duties / taxes are only paid when actually arriving on an Aussie shore.

Yes you can register it under another countries system as many others have done but is it strictly legal and does that matter - I don't know but the Act seems to suggest it isn't legal and experience seems to indicate it doesn't matter.

However if you decide to put it on the Australia register, you can't go wrong and if you never bring to Australia, you aren't liable for import duties etc. If you do bring it here, then pay up like everyone else and no harm is done.

BTW, forget about any state registration (Vic or whatever); none of that applies to your situation and why pay an annual fee for nothing.

Just my .02 cents worth.
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Old 05-12-2011, 14:29   #58
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Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
OK, lets back up a bit, we (myself included) all know of Aussies who own foreign registered vessels and probably also some who own unregistered vessels (outside Australia), then SimonV posts
and

and then along comes beneteau-500 who disagrees with SimonV

Now I know that the first points SimonV makes are true but I have never heard of the his last point so I go off and re-read the Shipping Register Act 1981.
It seems that SimonV may be correct even if this flies in the face of what we know is happening.

The only real reference for the legal position is the actual Acts themselves (and how the courts interpret them). My reading of the Shipping Registration Act would support SimonV's claim. The fact that they may be being ignored by many and not enforced is not the issue here. I am trying to find what the actual legal position is, not what everyone is doing.

In a poor analogy it is like say looking at how fast one is one allowed to drive. Everyone I know drives over the speed limit at some time or another. Does this mean that there is no speed limit or that the actual speed limit is higher than what one thinks it is. How do we know what the speed limit is? Do we just look at what speed everyone is doing or ask the car dealer? No, we look at the signposted limit and read the Traffic Act or whatever. Does it matter that everyone is driving faster? Not really, it only matters if the limit is enforced. If it isn't enforced, then no one really cares about driving over the limit but nevertheless the limit remains on the sign and in the traffic act.

Now the Shipping Register Act is mainly designed for commercial shipping and yachts are sort of tacked onto it. Maybe the government doesn't care that much about what Aussie owned yachts are doing in foreign ports; just make sure you are seen to be doing the right thing when you arrive / depart Australia - I don't know but I am trying to find out what the legal position is, especially as it seems to differ from actual practice.

Hoppys point about Customs is well stated and is confirmed by reading the Customs act (1901) but it is only one of the Acts that regulate arriving / departing / taxes on yachts.

Now lets revisit the OP


It would seem that you should register it on the Aussie register and you don't have to pay any import duty or taxes UNLESS you actually arrive in Australia.

Import duties / taxes are only paid when actually arriving on an Aussie shore.

Yes you can register it under another countries system as many others have done but is it strictly legal and does that matter - I don't know but the Act seems to suggest it isn't legal and experience seems to indicate it doesn't matter.

However if you decide to put it on the Australia register, you can't go wrong and if you never bring to Australia, you aren't liable for import duties etc. If you do bring it here, then pay up like everyone else and no harm is done.

BTW, forget about any state registration (Vic or whatever); none of that applies to your situation and why pay an annual fee for nothing.

Just my .02 cents worth.
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Old 05-12-2011, 21:07   #59
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Well summarised, Wotname! Based on your advice above, we will have to decide between doing the Aussie registry with all the ads, stat decs, etc, or getting all our ducks lined up to effectively prove o/s residency.

With regards to the point about non-Aust authorities wanting to see that our passports match the boat's "nationality", I have to say that no one has questioned our Aussie passports and British boat in any of the 14 countries this year. Make your own conclusions....
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Old 05-12-2011, 21:13   #60
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The second paragraph in my last comment refers to Simon V's remarks about boat nationality and owner nationality needing to match.
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