Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-11-2011, 13:11   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

All pleasure craft do require registration in Australian waters.
In the state of residence,
Which is the state you have your home address in,
Mines registered in Victoria as I live there.
Victorian Registration for my boat proved that the vessel is owned by me, Thats the detail that you need.
Proof of ownership of the vessel. Any country in the world will accept it as it does prove who the owner of the vessel is.
It only applies to pleasure craft vessels under a certain length or tonnage, Mine is under that certain lenght and tonnage
Over that lenght and tonnage, you must have Australian registration.
__________________

__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 16:24   #32
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Aigina, Greece
Boat: Bavaria Vision 44
Posts: 88
Send a message via Skype™ to Kojiro
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
Kojiro why is your yacht vat exempt as new rules in greece the govt are insisting the vat be paid by the current owner even if he has had it vat exempt for commerical reasons when i purchased my yacht the owner was forced to pay the vat ie i had to pay it but it came of the amount of purchase price then the greek stamped bill of sale vat paid

one tip on purchasing in greece is make sure you have a min of 8 originals of bill of sales in both greek and english as they get used up and lodged in various greek stamping departments of Govt
Beneteau 500,

I have bought the yacht and avoided VAT by being a resident of a non-EU country. It was originally VAT exempt as it was a commercial (charter) boat. Maybe the original owner will end up paying the VAT but that has not been mentioned or explained to me....it was quite clearly explained to me by broker that as a non-EU national (Australian passport) I would not be liable for VAT

Are you a non-EU national?
__________________

__________________
Kojiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 16:28   #33
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Aigina, Greece
Boat: Bavaria Vision 44
Posts: 88
Send a message via Skype™ to Kojiro
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
Kojiro why is your yacht vat exempt as new rules in greece the govt are insisting the vat be paid by the current owner even if he has had it vat exempt for commerical reasons when i purchased my yacht the owner was forced to pay the vat ie i had to pay it but it came of the amount of purchase price then the greek stamped bill of sale vat paid

one tip on purchasing in greece is make sure you have a min of 8 originals of bill of sales in both greek and english as they get used up and lodged in various greek stamping departments of Govt
If my memory serves me correctly I recollect that even if you buy things in EU and pay VAT you can have the VAT refunded on departure from the EU.
__________________
Kojiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 16:44   #34
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Aigina, Greece
Boat: Bavaria Vision 44
Posts: 88
Send a message via Skype™ to Kojiro
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
We are not Australian residents, but we are Australian citizens. Our boat is British-registered, as was our previous boat.

Where we are currently located there are other Aussies living onboard and cruising. One has his boat registered in the US and the other has his boat registered in France. None of them are Aussie residents, they are all expats.
I hold two passports (Australia, and UK) and currently reside in Australia.

Next year I will leave Australia for an indefinite period of time and sail my yacht progressively back towards Australia over several years.

I'm trying to come up with a way to avoid, at least for an initial 12 months period having to pay import fees if and when I hit Australia.

I'm thinking that if I leave Australia then I become a non-resident...an expatriate as you put it. I register my boat in Jersey...part of the UK but VAT free. So when I get back to Australia I have a non-Australian registered boat, sailed by a non-resident and therefore can get a cruising permit for up to 12 months before I need to make as decision...stay and import, or keep going.

Does that make sense?

Any ideas where I can get the legality of the above checked out?
__________________
Kojiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 17:50   #35
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Kojiro, I follow your logic and I believe it makes sense. I have not checked it out with the Aussie authorities yet and obviously we will have to do this before we arrive in Australia in a few years. It is not urgent.

We pay tax in a non-Australian country and our tax status in Australia is classed as "non-resident for tax purposes". That means any income made in Australia is taxed at the highest rate but it also means that we are NON-RESIDENTS FOR TAX PURPOSES. So we shouldn´t have to pay GST, nor import duty and we can pick up the 12-month cruising permit, and then leave before the year is finished.

It makes sense to me, but you never know how a good bureaucrat is likely to read the rules. So the question for you is where will you pay tax once you leave - UK, Jersey or OZ and what tax status do you want to have in Australia?
__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 19:40   #36
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Aigina, Greece
Boat: Bavaria Vision 44
Posts: 88
Send a message via Skype™ to Kojiro
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Kojiro, I follow your logic and I believe it makes sense. I have not checked it out with the Aussie authorities yet and obviously we will have to do this before we arrive in Australia in a few years. It is not urgent.

We pay tax in a non-Australian country and our tax status in Australia is classed as "non-resident for tax purposes". That means any income made in Australia is taxed at the highest rate but it also means that we are NON-RESIDENTS FOR TAX PURPOSES. So we shouldn´t have to pay GST, nor import duty and we can pick up the 12-month cruising permit, and then leave before the year is finished.

It makes sense to me, but you never know how a good bureaucrat is likely to read the rules. So the question for you is where will you pay tax once you leave - UK, Jersey or OZ and what tax status do you want to have in Australia?
Jimbo,

Thanks.
I'm retired so tax status is probably a mute point.
What concerns me a bit is your point about the bureaucrat's view.

I've bought a boat in Greece, VAT free.....legal;
I register it using my UK passport in Jersey...legal;
I sail presenting my UK passport when I need to.....legal;
I don't reside in Australia....legal;
I turn up in Australian waters and want a cruising permit for 12 months....legal, unless the bureaucrat has a different view!

I guess I'm just going to have to ask the authorities and then decide what to do.

Like you the situation isn't urgent as the boat is in the med and will not be back near Australia for at least 2-3 years from now.
__________________
Kojiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 20:03   #37
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

I sail presenting my UK passport when I need to.....legal;

So can you turn up in Oz with your UK passport and simply not present your Aussie one? Or is there a law against that?
__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2011, 21:07   #38
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Aigina, Greece
Boat: Bavaria Vision 44
Posts: 88
Send a message via Skype™ to Kojiro
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
I sail presenting my UK passport when I need to.....legal;

So can you turn up in Oz with your UK passport and simply not present your Aussie one? Or is there a law against that?

That's a good question.

My bill of sale quotes my ''old'' Australian residence, and my Australian passport. But then that's probably none of their business unless I'm importing? All I need to show is registration (which proves ownership, etc), and passport.
__________________
Kojiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2011, 00:29   #39
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kojiro View Post
I hold two passports (Australia, and UK) and currently reside in Australia.

Next year I will leave Australia for an indefinite period of time and sail my yacht progressively back towards Australia over several years.

I'm trying to come up with a way to avoid, at least for an initial 12 months period having to pay import fees if and when I hit Australia.

I'm thinking that if I leave Australia then I become a non-resident...an expatriate as you put it. I register my boat in Jersey...part of the UK but VAT free. So when I get back to Australia I have a non-Australian registered boat, sailed by a non-resident and therefore can get a cruising permit for up to 12 months before I need to make as decision...stay and import, or keep going.

Does that make sense?

Any ideas where I can get the legality of the above checked out?
Not only do you have to make yourself non-resident in Australia, you must make yourself resident in another country. You have to prove that you are still resident in that country when you "visit" Australia.

If your boat is Jersey registered that will probably be a big red flag to customs to ask questions
__________________
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2011, 00:30   #40
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
So can you turn up in Oz with your UK passport and simply not present your Aussie one? Or is there a law against that?
Ohhhh VERY illegal
__________________
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2011, 02:30   #41
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Not only do you have to make yourself non-resident in Australia, you must make yourself resident in another country. You have to prove that you are still resident in that country when you "visit" Australia.

If your boat is Jersey registered that will probably be a big red flag to customs to ask questions
Jersey well known in Australia by the tax authorities........

I would personally want to have a foreign address (not a PO box No. - even if it is really that) to quote if ever asked. Putting down an address within Australia might be pushing luck on claiming to be non-resident / the boat is not an import

If you can apply for a 12 month cruising permit before arriving will tell you whether the authorities view your arrival as an Import. (not to say that they can't later change their mind ).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 06:25   #42
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
As we know, pleasure crafts are not requiring registration (in Aus waters).......



Sections 13 & 29 seem to me to make it clear that pleasure craft which are exempt from registration are not required to have Australian nationality if they are registered under the law of a foreign country.


If I am wrong then I must be breaking Australian law
I think section 29 only makes claims to the Nationality of the ship as opposed to registration requirements
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
  • It is an offence for an Australian-owned vessel to sail for a foreign port unless it is registered in the Australian Register of Ships.
  • Note: vessels purchased overseas by Australians are also required to be registered before they sail for Australia or another foreign country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
simon you are talking a lot of tosspot bull **** you do not have a clue
Whether SimonV has a clue or not is totally inmarterial to this thread (or any thread on CF for that matter) and I suspect that SimonV is NOT "talking a lot of tosspot bull ****".

What is important is whether the information that he posts is correct or not; so lets address that question.

First I have to declare that:
While I have an personal interest in knowing some of the details of the Shipping Registration Act 1981, I have no legal expertise whatsoever.

However upon closer reading of the act, I am now thinking that Simon's information is factually correct and is supported by sections of the above act.

Section 68 is quite clear that an unregistered ship cannot (legally) depart an Australian port for a foreign destination and section 69 is equally clear that an unregistered ship cannot depart any foreign port (where there is a proper officer) unless the ship has either a registration certificate or a provisional registration certificate.

Quote:
68* Unregistered ships not to leave Australia
************ (1)* An unregistered ship shall not depart from an Australian port to a place outside Australia.
************ (2)* The master and owner of a ship that departs from an Australian port in contravention of subsection*(1) are each guilty of an offence punishable upon conviction:
******************** (a)* if the offender is a natural person—by a fine not exceeding $2,000; or
******************** (b)* if the offender is a body corporate—by a fine not exceeding $5,000.
********* (2A)* An offence under subsection (2) is an offence of strict liability.
Note:********* For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
************ (3)* A Collector of Customs shall not grant a Certificate of Clearance in respect of an unregistered ship that is about to depart from an Australian port to a place outside Australia.
************ (4)* Subsections*(1) and (3) do not apply to a prescribed ship, or ships included in a prescribed class of ships.

69* Unregistered ships not to leave foreign ports
************ (1)* Where an unregistered ship is at a foreign port at which there is a proper officer, the ship shall not depart from that port on a voyage unless and until a registration certificate or provisional registration certificate is granted in respect of the ship.
************ (2)* The master and owner of a ship that departs from a foreign port in contravention of subsection*(1) are each guilty of an offence punishable upon conviction:
******************** (a)* if the offender is a natural person—by a fine not exceeding $2,000; or
******************** (b)* if the offender is a body corporate—by a fine not exceeding $5,000.
********* (2A)* An offence under subsection (2) is an offence of strict liability.
Note:********* For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
************ (3)* Subsection*(1) does not apply to a prescribed ship, or ships included in a prescribed class of ships.


Does this apply to you or me or say Hoppy? Well, that depends on the definition of “unregistered ship” and “prescribed ship” as it applies to the act.
I haven't found a satisfactory definition of “prescribed ship” but I suspect it doesn't apply to the average sailing yacht however the act does give a clear definition of “unregistered ship” which is:

Quote “unregistered ship means a ship entitled to be registered that is not registered.”

This would include (IMO) those vessels as defined in section 14 .

Quote “14* Ships permitted to be registered
****************** Where application is made as provided by this Act, the following ships shall be registered:
******************** (a)* Australian‑owned ships referred to in section*13;
******************** (b)* small craft wholly owned by residents of Australia or by residents of Australia and Australian nationals;
******************** (c)* small craft operated solely by residents of Australia or Australian nationals or both;
******************** (d)* ships on demise charter to Australian‑based operators.”

And just to round off, the act gives us the definition of an Australian National which is:

Quote “Australian national means:
******************** (a)* an Australian citizen;
******************** (b)* a body corporate established by or under a law of the Commonwealth or of a State or Territory; or
******************** (c)* the Commonwealth or a State or Territory.”

So this seems to support SimonV claims and also perhaps to make Hoppy's actions illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
We are not Australian residents, but we are Australian citizens. Our boat is British-registered, as was our previous boat.

Where we are currently located there are other Aussies living onboard and cruising. One has his boat registered in the US and the other has his boat registered in France. None of them are Aussie residents, they are all expats.
Well as strange as it seems, you all APPEAR to be contravention of the Australian Shipping Registration Act 1981 but I repeat, I ain't no lawyer, I am just reading the act as it seems to be written.

Perhaps no one gives a rats ar*e... but we do know that section 68 is clearly enforced as described above so why wouldn't section 69 be also enforced similarly - apart from the fact that there is no Australian officials actually checking what happens outside Aussie ports!
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 06:45   #43
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
All pleasure craft do require registration in Australian waters.
In the state of residence,
Which is the state you have your home address in,
Mines registered in Victoria as I live there.
Victorian Registration for my boat proved that the vessel is owned by me, Thats the detail that you need.
Proof of ownership of the vessel. Any country in the world will accept it as it does prove who the owner of the vessel is.
It only applies to pleasure craft vessels under a certain length or tonnage, Mine is under that certain lenght and tonnage
Over that lenght and tonnage, you must have Australian registration.
Not entirely correct Mr B.

Each state is different and has it own requirements.

For instance, in Western Australia, pleasure craft that do not have an engine are NOT required to be registered. Quoting from the WA transport department "If your boat has a motor, or is fitted for one, it must be registered with the Department and is subject to an annual registration fee. Yachts, canoes, surf skis and other craft without motors and not fitted to carry one, are not required to be registered."

And in the Northern Territory, there is NO registration requirements; quoting from the NT Transport Group "Pleasure craft do not require registration and operators are not required to hold a licence to drive a pleasure craft. "

And in Tasmania, it seems that the boat ONLY requires registration if it has an engine of 4HP or greater.

However as posted elsewhere, any of the above vessels MAY be placed on the Australian Shipping register if the owner so wishes (or wants to depart for a foreign port).
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 12:06   #44
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Whether SimonV has a clue or not is totally inmarterial to this thread (or any thread on CF for that matter) and I suspect that SimonV is NOT "talking a lot of tosspot bull ****".

What is important is whether the information that he posts is correct or not; so lets address that question.
That last paragraph is somewhat optimistic (even on CF)......

FWIW I think if an OP (with a question like this) goes away with a few links to Govt / Official Websites - and a headstart on what questions to ask, then that is about as much he / she can hope for.

Certainly ain't ever gonna get anything that can be bet on. It's the internet
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 16:12   #45
Registered User
 
SimonV's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Posts: 1,316
Re: Sailing Yacht - Country of Registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
simon you are talking a lot of tosspot bull **** you do not have a clue
I am sorry you feel this way. I for one only give factual information and would never dream of slagging some one off unless I knew for sure that person was wrong. As I am not wrong, perhaps you might like to rescind you remarks. For your information I have Imported two yachts to Australia and have helped with others, I have personally seen what happens when an Australian Citizen sailed to Oz with his new boat with Uk Reg...he was refused a cruising permit and was given 6 weeks to remove the vessel or import it.
__________________

__________________
Simon

https://svgoodonya.blogspot.com.au/
SimonV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
registration

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: 9m Steel Sailing Boat with ARC 2010 Registration chr.manthey Classifieds Archive 2 05-11-2010 06:26
Changing Registration Country Whilst in Greece hoppy Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 2 05-11-2010 04:00
Country of Registration for World Cruising Ocean2Free Dollars & Cents 23 15-10-2009 17:00
What Papers Are Needed When Sailing from Country to Country? Cavecreature Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 17 04-10-2009 14:39
Looking for a paid Mate position on a sailing yacht or power yacht delivery. CharlesFCook Crew Archives 1 19-08-2007 09:33



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.