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Old 12-12-2012, 10:49   #121
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post
What it appears your 'drift' is, would be similar to when a manager(s) or business owner(s) would have to fire someone because they are not performing the tasks they were hired to do? If I have decoded your analogy correctly, then YES! Most definitely. But I can appreciate your idea of this being decided by a 'board' and not just one person, THAT seems like it keeps the organizations best interest in mind as the organization would be making the decision.
If you are living communally, there must be an organizational structure. A Central Committee so to speak. You were the one who described a rotating membership to this committee. I chose "Board of Deciders" to illustrate a point.
Sans "rule of law" and proscribed "individual rights" the ball is decidedly in the Deciders court. You seem to be perfectly happy with arrangement. Not much room for disagreement given the alternative is expulsion from the community.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:51   #122
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post
What it appears your 'drift' is, would be similar to when a manager(s) or business owner(s) would have to fire someone because they are not performing the tasks they were hired to do? If I have decoded your analogy correctly, then YES! Most definitely. But I can appreciate your idea of this being decided by a 'board' and not just one person, THAT seems like it keeps the organizations best interest in mind as the organization would be making the decision.

So that I can understand you correctly, you're saying a "Committee of Public Safety" would be set up in your hypothetical commune similar to the French model.... No?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:55   #123
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
commune, hmmm.,, sailing commune, does that mean all the girls would sail topless . Thats whats comes to my mind.

Im reminded of one of my favourite lines

""Doctor, you mentioned the ration of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?"
"Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature"
"

Id replace "human race" above with "sailing commune"

dum-di-dum, back to the medication
Dave
That all sounds very nice - but if folks are visiting the EU they should probably consider the VAT implications of such an approach .

Any advice?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:56   #124
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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So that I can understand you correctly, you're saying a "Committee of Public Safety" would be set up in your hypothetical commune similar to the French model.... No?
No, I think she means the "Committee to Guarantee a Minimum Annual Income"
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:28   #125
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by Tar34 View Post
If you are living communally, there must be an organizational structure. A Central Committee so to speak. You were the one who described a rotating membership to this committee. I chose "Board of Deciders" to illustrate a point.
Sans "rule of law" and proscribed "individual rights" the ball is decidedly in the Deciders court. You seem to be perfectly happy with arrangement. Not much room for disagreement given the alternative is expulsion from the community.
I can not think of a current society (or imagined one) that does not offer 'expulsion' as the option for not obeying the 'rule of law'. This forum is an example of such a society. Does this forum offer a revolving 'board'? It looks like it does in that I have seen new moderators added. The human body is another example of such a society! It is THAT natural. All I was suggesting was that maybe this should be a 'body' of people that 'revolved' so that all the members of the organization had the opportunity to engage decision making process to meet the groups needs.

I agree that there are some folks in this world that have no need to be a part of society, and at first thought Tar34 I considered you might be such a person. BUT there are not ANY PEOPLE on this forum that can make such a claim, because they have in fact chosen this forum, or 'hive', in order to share their opinions. Each society is set up differently and each society has something different to offer. So I will leave you with a couple quotes from one of your posts from a different thread from today:

" Look down upon those with a dream if it makes you feel better. To be human is to dream. And most important to be human is to act on that dream."

AND

"Yes and who make you the arbiter? In this example, I see no hazard to others, and the risks one takes in life,....."

Which contributions of yours shall we consider valid? And....how can we tell?
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:32   #126
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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I can not think of a current society (or imagined one) that does not offer 'expulsion' as the option for not obeying the 'rule of law'. This forum is an example of such a society. Does this forum offer a revolving 'board'? It looks like it does in that I have seen new moderators added. The human body is another example of such a society! It is THAT natural. All I was suggesting was that maybe this should be a 'body' of people that 'revolved' so that all the members of the organization had the opportunity to engage decision making process to meet the groups needs.

I agree that there are some folks in this world that have no need to be a part of society, and at first thought Tar34 I considered you might be such a person. BUT there are not ANY PEOPLE on this forum that can make such a claim, because they have in fact chosen this forum, or 'hive', in order to share their opinions. Each society is set up differently and each society has something different to offer. So I will leave you with a couple quotes from one of your posts from a different thread from today:

" Look down upon those with a dream if it makes you feel better. To be human is to dream. And most important to be human is to act on that dream."

AND

"Yes and who make you the arbiter? In this example, I see no hazard to others, and the risks one takes in life,....."

Which contributions of yours shall we consider valid? And....how can we tell?
Who makes the law in your imagined commune?
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:39   #127
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
So that I can understand you correctly, you're saying a "Committee of Public Safety" would be set up in your hypothetical commune similar to the French model.... No?
Myself, I would only offer to any founders that no 'model' be used if at all possible. Though I do think the American founding fathers might have been on to something. Personally I think a 'lottery' would have been a better suggestion to accomplish its revolving leadership than a 'vote'. IMHO the betterment of any organisation (society) is not a 'popularity contest' between people, but a more so between the ideals of the people.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:02   #128
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

After the founding , the transition of our society from a new-democratic to a socialist society will be effected step by step. The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production will be completed, the system of exploitation of man by man eliminated and the socialist system established. The people's dictatorship, led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants, which is in essence the dictatorship of the proletariat, will be consolidated and developed.

How's that for start?
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:51   #129
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forgive my input but starting a commune on the sea in my opinion is foolish, just like biker gangs. I love to ride motor cycles and I love the sea, but I do them both to truly be free.
Now there's a delusion, a nice one , but a delusion nonetheless

Dave
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:56   #130
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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

That all sounds very nice - but if folks are visiting the EU they should probably consider the VAT implications of such an approach .

Any advice?
Well on consulting the mandatory vat attorney, they have agreed that under EU directive 45/564-2. That the display of female nudity does result in VAT waiver, not to mention accelerated immigration and berth allocation.

Seriously , I remember a situation where two girls jumped off the French yacht , one was naked, one was topless, to help tie up the yacht. , I've never seen so many marina hands and helpful other boaters , quite remarkable really.

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Old 12-12-2012, 22:40   #131
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

It seems like some people have never had lots of really good friends or like helping people. That is basically what I would think this would be. The issues happen when it gets too big, but if a group of 50-100 people formed a collective, where they would watch over their boats when others were on shore, or offer dingy rides from anchored boats to the dock if they were going in, or if they had some extra fish or food that would go bad... But, life has to get to a point were it is very easy. The number of 'chores' or 'problems' that would happen on a boat would have to come down, or that is just up to the individual to fix the boat with some help and knowledge from others. Kind of like this forum. The advice here is free. And while the composting head is a good example of an improvement, I still think the waste issue could be handled and processed better.

And not everyone would want to be a navigator 100% of the time. Sometimes you find new places and things to do by letting other people lead.

I would think if it was a Jan-April thing it would work, while allowing the people to 'be free'.

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After the founding , the transition of our society from a new-democratic to a socialist society will be effected step by step. The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production will be completed, the system of exploitation of man by man eliminated and the socialist system established. The people's dictatorship, led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants, which is in essence the dictatorship of the proletariat, will be consolidated and developed.

How's that for start?
Sounds better than what is happening now, unless you somehow inherited the top post at a big company.

The slippy slope is happening, but the end result won't be any better.

But that will get into a politics rant quickly.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:54   #132
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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....But for me being 66 yrs. old and having seen my closest younger brother die of pancreatic cancer at age 60, I'm convinced that in the long run the grim reaper wins and you aren't taking anything with you and I don't have a wife or off spring. So a tribe, commune, collective, co-op, cult, sailing gang or sea gypsies, they are all looking more attractive with each passing day, (notice I did not mention Pirates or free loaders)....
I am also one to whom the idea of some sort of tribe, particularly one that incorporates sailing, sounds very appealing in life right now. I don't see why this would be offensive to anyone here. What is important to each of us in life can simply differ greatly. The most skilled debater may win the hearts of the audience but her/his acumen can not change what I feel in mine. I followed the path of "success" for the first 25 years of my life with vigor, before knowing for certain that I would be unfulfilled if I continued down that path, even "successfully". I am simply more happy, more driven, and more productive, when my efforts are in close collaboration with those around me to create our collective way of life. Living life in tribes or clans is simply the vast majority of human history, so it would seem that we can set down the notion that somehow working collaboratively with your peers, without intra-tribal competition, necessarily equals "laziness".

I am not saying that there haven't been serious issues arise in attempts to reformulate communal ways of living, since it's banishment. And I am not refuting that the "American dream" type of "success" may work very well toward the happiness of many others. It seems to me that, while many of the so-called indigenous peoples throughout the world died off because of warfare or disease, some also found the individualistic way of life to not be living at all. This is the acute case I have. And I understand it is not that extreme in the OP Gelf when he speaks of his idea of a Sailing Commune/Tribe/Clan. But just as we know there are extreme extroverts and introverts, and every shade in between; the same applies here.

Ok, so I have also observed that many who cruise tend toward finding freedom in independence and self-reliance. But I don't think this is much different than people crossing seas 400 years ago. It's just that then the self in self-reliance and the I in independence may have meant a group of 30. There is similarly an idea of self-reliance that Gelf speaks of, when having a nurse, mechanic, financier, etc. in his clan. 93 people may be unable to share in this meaning of freedom with him, but what matters here is the 7 who do.

I have been very intrigued with this thread, especially it's renaissance. However, given the climate, it didn't really seem fruitful throwing in my two cents. But I'm sure with the thread title of "Sailing Commune" there are many others who are likewise afflicted with a strong desire or need for deeper collaboration, sitting on the sidelines. So I'd hope to here from more of these out-of-the-boxers, so they/we can move away from silence and toward forming whatever connections work best for them/us.
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Old 13-12-2012, 07:46   #133
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Sailing Commune maybe triggers too much debate
about capitalism vs communism or self reliance and
independence vs it's alternative, but I believe there
is something to be gained by thinking about how
we, some of us. can get off the "trainer potty" of always
thinking of ourselves and small goals and think about
what is best for our human family and our real mother.
the earth and then start working collectively toward
that goal. It may not work out. But I discovered a
quote today that is inspirational toward that end:
"Have faith in your dreams and someday your
rainbow will come smiling through. No matter how
your heart is grieving, if you keep believing, the
dream that you wish will come true."
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Old 13-12-2012, 08:14   #134
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Yeah there's a sailing commune; and bonus they're all vegan.

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Old 13-12-2012, 13:15   #135
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by caliph View Post
....Ok, so I have also observed that many who cruise tend toward finding freedom in independence and self-reliance. But I don't think this is much different than people crossing seas 400 years ago. It's just that then the self in self-reliance and the I in independence may have meant a group of 30. There is similarly an idea of self-reliance that Gelf speaks of, when having a nurse, mechanic, financier, etc. in his clan. 93 people may be unable to share in this meaning of freedom with him, but what matters here is the 7 who do.......
Thank you Caliph! Exactly. Kinda like the Vikings......distant shores, family.....but without the killing.

And to the 93 (though I can't imagine the percentage being that high!) I can completely understand. While I am someone that believes in the strength of a community, my father showed me all to well that not all do.

I think that there is a little bit of a 'hermit' in all of us, and no better way to enjoy that than on a boat! Even a tribe/clan doesn't have to raft up together every night. It could be like a land base neighborhood that moves....and when it stops your neighbor doesn't have to be planted 20 feet from you, you could be up the creek a mile, around the bend...you get what I am saying. But as a 'neighbor' one could be available in the case of an emergency....social gathering.....advice.....etc. A 'non-digital' cruisers forum of sorts!

I do think the thread took a 'political turn' and it was stated earlier in the thread....this idea was of no such thing. And those like Caliph to the time to read it all have contributed nicely! Thanks to ALL who have done so!
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