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Old 12-12-2012, 08:21   #106
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pirate Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Hmmmm.... I've found that most cruisers I meet are independent and self-reliant, the traits which have attracted them to the cruising lifestyle.

The communists on the other hand, seem to want to live in large communities where they can have other "suckers" do the heavy lifting for them. Communism and cruising lifestyles seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum... 'just an observation.
....
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:27   #107
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlum46 View Post
Pursuing the idea of "sailing commune", I did some internet
exploring today and found that there is a group with a farm
in Norway, which is building or has built a sailboat and they
call themselves, "Sailing the Farm Sea Gypsy Tribe of Tomorrow". They have exposure on Lonely Planet, Couch
Surfing, Permies and other sites connected to a sort of
avant guard back to nature thinking. I have had difficulty
getting an email for them, although they keep saying in
their posts to come and join them. I think it was Groucho
Marx that said, "I wouldn't be a member of any organization
that would have me.? I don't know if that was said out of
a sense of independence and self reliance or just self
contemplation.
But for me being 66 yrs. old and having seen my closest
younger brother die of pancreatic cancer at age 60, I'm
convinced that in the long run the grim reaper wins and you
aren't taking anything with you and I don't have a wife or
off spring. So a tribe, commune, collective, co-op, cult,
sailing gang or sea gypsies, they are all looking more
attractive with each passing day, (notice I did not mention
Pirates or free loaders). The trouble many people have
with the term "commune" is it conjurs up a vision of
what was told to me in Poland in 1979 when I visited. I
asked a Polish guy who spoke a little English. I said, " why
is it where ever I go nobody seems to be working?" To
which he promptly replied in broken English, "Well see
this is communism and therefore we pretend to work and
they pretend to pay us." So nobody got paid and nobody
was really working. So somebody would say that is why
the communist system failed, ergo in a lot of people's
mind any cooperative or communal effort is doomed to
failure but hold on whats all this talk about China on the
rise and the American economy on the decline? Enough
said just my = two cents. Jdlum46
I feel ya...and a reason why I started the thread. I spent some time in China (2009) teaching English (it was actually American I was teaching, they had no interest in learning English) and I was approached by one of the department heads of a major university and was asked, "Now that Capitalism has failed in America, what is next?" I am sure my jaw hit the floor. So I questioned him to get his reasoning. After a fairly lengthy conversation, I can understand why those outside of the American economy can see it as a 'failure'. Also in discussions with him, I got a chance to understand and appreciate the direction that China is heading in. It seemed to me that they were looking at the best aspects of Communism and 'mixing' it with the best ideals of Capitalism. This is the 'simple' way of stating it, but as an idea of what was shared with me....China believes that there is not a 'job' that is more important than another in a society. That a school is as important as a supermarket, that a fishing company is no more important than a farm, etc. But inside of this, there should be competitions between schools, or between fisheries, etc. Taking from the Capitalistic 'free market' approach that the better one will survive as it produces a better 'product' for the society as a whole.

To relate this to a proper 'sailing commune', those that help the society stay, those who don't ..... go. There might be a 'money man' (or men) and that is their role. In that there are two, the only competition being between them. There might be an mechanic (or more), and the only competition they have would be between other mechanics. Same could go for cooks, body workers, navigators, farmers (or food providers as it may be), even managers.....etc. The 'cook' doesn't gain status for providing a taste worthy meal, in that the 'farmers' provided the food to cook. The mechanic doesn't gain status for providing workable and maintained engines/generators when the 'money men' provided funds for workable parts....so on and so on.

And as some have already mentioned, those that have been raised in a pure Communist OR Capitalist environment could have problems understanding the concept, but if this same person is a follower of any of the major religions, then that person 'should' welcome said conditions with open arms.

IMHO....anyway.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:38   #108
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post
I feel ya...and a reason why I started the thread. I spent some time in China (2009) teaching English (it was actually American I was teaching, they had no interest in learning English) and I was approached by one of the department heads of a major university and was asked, "Now that Capitalism has failed in America, what is next?" I am sure my jaw hit the floor. So I questioned him to get his reasoning. After a fairly lengthy conversation, I can understand why those outside of the American economy can see it as a 'failure'. Also in discussions with him, I got a chance to understand and appreciate the direction that China is heading in. It seemed to me that they were looking at the best aspects of Communism and 'mixing' it with the best ideals of Capitalism. This is the 'simple' way of stating it, but as an idea of what was shared with me....China believes that there is not a 'job' that is more important than another in a society. That a school is as important as a supermarket, that a fishing company is no more important than a farm, etc. But inside of this, there should be competitions between schools, or between fisheries, etc. Taking from the Capitalistic 'free market' approach that the better one will survive as it produces a better 'product' for the society as a whole.

To relate this to a proper 'sailing commune', those that help the society stay, those who don't ..... go. There might be a 'money man' (or men) and that is their role. In that there are two, the only competition being between them. There might be an mechanic (or more), and the only competition they have would be between other mechanics. Same could go for cooks, body workers, navigators, farmers (or food providers as it may be), even managers.....etc. The 'cook' doesn't gain status for providing a taste worthy meal, in that the 'farmers' provided the food to cook. The mechanic doesn't gain status for providing workable and maintained engines/generators when the 'money men' provided funds for workable parts....so on and so on.

And as some have already mentioned, those that have been raised in a pure Communist OR Capitalist environment could have problems understanding the concept, but if this same person is a follower of any of the major religions, then that person 'should' welcome said conditions with open arms.

IMHO....anyway.
Ok, so in your sailing commune.... who's going to rebuild your head and replace your choker valve the next time it breaks?
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:52   #109
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Gelfling Said:
This is the 'simple' way of stating it, but as an idea of what was shared with me....China believes that there is not a 'job' that is more important than another in a society. That a school is as important as a supermarket, that a fishing company is no more important than a farm, etc.........To relate this to a proper 'sailing commune', those that help the society stay, those who don't ..... go


So, who is on the Board of Deciders?

Sorry Gelf, as wind swept seas swirl around, this oar is as important as you. You will have to go. It's the boat and the rest of us or you. Gelf drowning as the boat drifts away.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:27   #110
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

One of the reasons I tried to revive the "sailing commune"
idea is to see if there are others besides myself who are
able to think outside the box. I'm talking about the "box"
that has us all trapped by our own way of thinking which is
based on what everyone else is thinking. The question that
was presented by a previous post was, "Ok so in your commune
....who's going to rebuild your head and replace your choker
valve the next time it breaks?" I assume we are talking
toilet here. When I arrived in Ensenada, Mexico I discovered
that they have the same problem that plaqued all of the
rest of the "modern" world. The people are crapping in the
water. The harbor stinks you drive around town, especially
after a rain the whole town stinks of fecal matter. You
go in the marina and the American cruisers are crapping
in the boat toilets and flushing it into the harbor because
there is no pump out. First of all what struck me was the
insanity of the whole approach of man crapping in water.
When the white man came to America, people could drink
out of every stream, lake and body of water. Today there
is no place left in North America, other than possibly the
Yukon where you can drink from a stream, lake or river.
At the same time the soil has been depleted of humus and
huge amounts of chemicals are added which have now
contaminated most of the ground waters. Looking at
Ensenada I immediately, based on my efforts of setting
up a nature preserve on 60 acres in Michigan and using
human "waste" to grow trees, realized that Ensenada, being
in the desert had two main problems, a lack of fresh water
and a lack of humus in the soil which was related to the
lack of water which meant things weren't growing and
therefore there was very little plant and animal matter
to enrich the soil. So what were and are they doing, a city of
several hundred thousand was and is taking "fresh" water
crapping in it and then flushing the valuable organic humus,
i.e. human manure into the ocean which has lead to over
nutrients in the way which causes algae bloom which takes
all the oxygen and the fish die. So not wanting to participate
in what appeared to be intelligent thinking, plus I don't
like the fecal, urine smell in most boats, I decided to go back
to the tried and true method I had used on the farm in
reforestry, recycle what you eat and drink. I started by getting
the grass clippings that were being thrown away drying them,
adding some fresh organic soil from a canyon and then using
this as the flush in my composting toilet rather than the
conventional water method. All the urine goes in a separate
large jug, treated with orange rinds to keep the ammonia
odor of the urine down. Every few weeks all of these good
"clean" organic matter plus all my organic food scraps and
every bit of fresh water I've used for dishes, washing etc.
is taken out to a friends organic, compost, worm farm and
enrichs the soil. Is there still a need for someone at the
"commune" to dirty their hands fixing a toilet?
Someone said the definition of insanity is doing what you
have always done and expecting a different result.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:36   #111
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Ok, so in your sailing commune.... who's going to rebuild your head and replace your choker valve the next time it breaks?
I don't have a sailing commune. But if I did, in this situation I would do myself...as I know how. But I think what you are trying to ask if "If I did have a sailing commune, and I didn't know how to do said task", then I would imagine this would be something that a 'mechanic' would be able to accomplish....mainly because of the mechanical nature of the task.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:42   #112
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tar34 View Post
Gelfling Said:
This is the 'simple' way of stating it, but as an idea of what was shared with me....China believes that there is not a 'job' that is more important than another in a society. That a school is as important as a supermarket, that a fishing company is no more important than a farm, etc.........To relate this to a proper 'sailing commune', those that help the society stay, those who don't ..... go


So, who is on the Board of Deciders?

Sorry Gelf, as wind swept seas swirl around, this oar is as important as you. You will have to go. It's the boat and the rest of us or you. Gelf drowning as the boat drifts away.
With like minded individuals coming together for a better cause, I think a 'Board of Deciders' can be agreed upon. If I was one of these like minded individuals, my 'two cents' would be a revolving 'Board' that is not built around a 'voting system' but more a duty as a member of the organization.

And I have to ask....you don't find oar's important on a boat? I do....but I can understand 'to each his own'. My question is....If you don't find them useful...then why are they on-board anyway?
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:43   #113
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Ok, so in your sailing commune.... who's going to rebuild your head and replace your choker valve the next time it breaks?
If you're talking about the valve in a marine head, the correct term is "joker valve." On my head, replacing a joker valve is a five-minute job that requires no specific expertise beyond how to manipulate a screw driver.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:46   #114
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post
With like minded individuals coming together for a better cause, I think a 'Board of Deciders' can be agreed upon. If I was one of these like minded individuals, my 'two cents' would be a revolving 'Board' that is not built around a 'voting system' but more a duty as a member of the organization.

And I have to ask....you don't find oar's important on a boat? I do....but I can understand 'to each his own'. My question is....If you don't find them useful...then why are they on-board anyway?
Of course the oar is important. In this case, contributing more than you. The Deciders had to choose you or save the "commune". Poorly worded perhaps but you get the "drift".
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:07   #115
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

jdlum46 - Again...I hear ya. But there are so many more factors involved than what you put forth. I have to believe the the earth can and will accept and hand the waste of its inhabitants. I am not a scientist, but it appears to me that the bigger problem is when we add over fertilization to the equation that things start to get out of control. So then a question could be "Why do we need to grow so much food in America when 2/3 of the population is overweight?" Before someone thinks that I know the answer to this, I don't. I would have to think that greed has its part in this, as if it can be sold...then make it! Imagine if we didn't 'over plant' so that we didn't 'over eat' how quickly this (fertilizer+human waste) would be reduced! But that is for each of us to decide on our own as one must live ones own life.

I agree on the 'outside of the box' thinking you mention. For me, I have two daughters, three nephews, and all of their friends that seen to have at least one thing in common. It would appear that all of them cannot function without staring at an electrified screen (Laptop, tablet, tv, gaming device) of some sort for a minimal amount of time in any given day. Hell, I do the same thing....in the winter....when I can't be out on the boat because I am local to one spot ATM. So to me.....'outside the box' would be ALL those damn digital boxes that most everyone has that addiction too!
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:13   #116
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

forgive my input but starting a commune on the sea in my opinion is foolish, just like biker gangs. I love to ride motor cycles and I love the sea, but I do them both to truly be free.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:15   #117
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlum46 View Post
One of the reasons I tried to revive the "sailing commune"
idea is to see if there are others besides myself who are
able to think outside the box. I'm talking about the "box"
that has us all trapped by our own way of thinking which is
based on what everyone else is thinking. The question that
was presented by a previous post was, "Ok so in your commune
....who's going to rebuild your head and replace your choker
valve the next time it breaks?" I assume we are talking
toilet here. When I arrived in Ensenada, Mexico I discovered
that they have the same problem that plaqued all of the
rest of the "modern" world. The people are crapping in the
water. The harbor stinks you drive around town, especially
after a rain the whole town stinks of fecal matter. You
go in the marina and the American cruisers are crapping
in the boat toilets and flushing it into the harbor because
there is no pump out. First of all what struck me was the
insanity of the whole approach of man crapping in water.
When the white man came to America, people could drink
out of every stream, lake and body of water. Today there
is no place left in North America, other than possibly the
Yukon where you can drink from a stream, lake or river.
At the same time the soil has been depleted of humus and
huge amounts of chemicals are added which have now
contaminated most of the ground waters. Looking at
Ensenada I immediately, based on my efforts of setting
up a nature preserve on 60 acres in Michigan and using
human "waste" to grow trees, realized that Ensenada, being
in the desert had two main problems, a lack of fresh water
and a lack of humus in the soil which was related to the
lack of water which meant things weren't growing and
therefore there was very little plant and animal matter
to enrich the soil. So what were and are they doing, a city of
several hundred thousand was and is taking "fresh" water
crapping in it and then flushing the valuable organic humus,
i.e. human manure into the ocean which has lead to over
nutrients in the way which causes algae bloom which takes
all the oxygen and the fish die. So not wanting to participate
in what appeared to be intelligent thinking, plus I don't
like the fecal, urine smell in most boats, I decided to go back
to the tried and true method I had used on the farm in
reforestry, recycle what you eat and drink. I started by getting
the grass clippings that were being thrown away drying them,
adding some fresh organic soil from a canyon and then using
this as the flush in my composting toilet rather than the
conventional water method. All the urine goes in a separate
large jug, treated with orange rinds to keep the ammonia
odor of the urine down. Every few weeks all of these good
"clean" organic matter plus all my organic food scraps and
every bit of fresh water I've used for dishes, washing etc.
is taken out to a friends organic, compost, worm farm and
enrichs the soil. Is there still a need for someone at the
"commune" to dirty their hands fixing a toilet?
Someone said the definition of insanity is doing what you
have always done and expecting a different result.

I stand corrected... how is it possible that I could have not have envisioned your superior way of disposing of waste? It truly does "take[s] a village."

Thank you for taking the time to explain proper waste disposal in a way I can understand..... and thanks for defining insanity.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:18   #118
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Gelf Said: ..So then a question could be "Why do we need to grow so much food in America when 2/3 of the population is overweight?" Before someone thinks that I know the answer to this, I don't. I would have to think that greed has its part in this, as if it can be sold...then make it!......

Simple answer, we export food to the rest of world... especially to those who live communally.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:32   #119
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tar34 View Post
Of course the oar is important. In this case, contributing more than you. The Deciders had to choose you or save the "commune". Poorly worded perhaps but you get the "drift".
What it appears your 'drift' is, would be similar to when a manager(s) or business owner(s) would have to fire someone because they are not performing the tasks they were hired to do? If I have decoded your analogy correctly, then YES! Most definitely. But I can appreciate your idea of this being decided by a 'board' and not just one person, THAT seems like it keeps the organizations best interest in mind as the organization would be making the decision.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:38   #120
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by saltyseadog View Post
forgive my input but starting a commune on the sea in my opinion is foolish, just like biker gangs. I love to ride motor cycles and I love the sea, but I do them both to truly be free.
And I and many others would applaud you for this! But as there are motorcycle 'gangs' that share in their love for the road (and I have known most of them to provide fundraising events for charitable organisations) all this forum was meant to be was for raising ideas for a like organisation for liveaboards. Kinda like the 'yacht clubs' for weekend racers.
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