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Old 26-07-2012, 05:51   #76
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's a great book by George Orwell on communism, which would be a good read for home-schoolers. Be sure to Read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell to find out how well communism will work out in the sailing community.

In most cases, I've found that those folks who praise the virtues of communism to be ones who've decided for some reason that it would be more beneficial to their lifestyle to have other people carry the water and do the heavy lifting.... and not have to pay for the service.
I've always wondered what would have happened in that book if the windmill hadn't been destroyed? If the power it created had been free to those who built it once it worked, if they would have used the technical advances to work fewer hours (instead of firing more people and making the remaining employees do two jobs.)...

Animal Farm Windmills

But since that changes the status quo and some people would lose power and control, it is very hard for it to happen. It should happen though.

I don't see a problem in working together to reduce the amount of work you have to do. But corruption and greed will ruin any system.

Anyways, a sailing commune would just be a floating community who are willing to be friendly and talk to each other in my book. A few times a year, the route would be predetermined and some people's knowledge and expertise of where to go would help out the novice sailors. Just like we give advice on this forum for free, the same type of thing would apply on the trip with some people giving rides in their dinghy if they happen to be going in or watching for other boats looking to steal something when the owners are in town.
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Old 26-07-2012, 07:06   #77
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Interesting idea. Just a thought: we have a friend that had his boat documented and incorporated, and with that he got a 30% discount at West Marine, (maybe also Defender etc). He offered to share his discount with us, but we rarely buy from WM, because they are so $$$. But for a group that needs parts and supplies fast, a "communal discount" could save big bucks.

A virtual commune could be a vital addition to the forums, nets, rallies and clubs. Cruisers checking in with their float plans on a website and through a cross-referencing program finding a match with other float plans that are closest to their sailing dates and ETAs. That way a group could leave together from x pick up others along the way. But you are not locked in and best of all don't have to pay lots of money to participate! If cruisers who use a plotting program to track their progress offshore then the possibilities would be endless. Cruisers use SPOT to tell folks at home where they are and that they are safe, how about an expansion of that idea for a larger group?
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Old 26-07-2012, 09:00   #78
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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No sh#t

Everyones idea of "Sharing" and "fair" is different. For me it is giving a hand when I am able (whether time or resources). For others it will include a go on me wife........and some to the point of being offended if not freely offered .

IMO that is why any society needs rules to prosper. apart from those which are happy to spend their days vegetating and declining whilst watching lentils grow as the world moves on around them.......and usually will find that even those are not as self supporting as they claim, or even think.......including from "da man".

I appreciate that with the "Rules" thing I may not be very popular with the free spirit end of the spectrum . But f#ck 'em the Tribe does not have to work for everybody, it simply has to recognise that it won't work for everyone - and then have ways and means (aka Rules!) to deal with those who will nonetheless join and then either demand their free lunch or seek to change the (unwritten) rules to own advantage.....or simply have lots of "good" ideas .

Rules provide a framework of certainty and stability as well as clearly sets out the expectations that folk can either subscribe to or not (and folk will change opinions on what works for them over time). But the rules do not have to be onerous (unless one likes living under facism ).....and the most important rule to first decide is how to change the rules (societies do also either evolve or die).




That probably is true for a commune. But my take is that is not what OP was talking about. More about people each having own pot, but being willing to contribute to the Group / Tribe for own benefit, although not neccessarily getting that benefit "now".

Strange no one has mentioned Pirates yet or a Viking raiding party .
Thank you DOJ, this is about spot on. Take employment for example - most anytime a person accepts an employment offer, he/she will evaluate the 'rules' (Operating Procedures) of that organization vs the 'rewards' (payrate) that will be offered. This 'idea' would be no different. I personally have had people agree to the 'rules' at the start but then decided against following them while still wanting to accept the 'rewards'. Ultimately this leads to allow said people to be available for membership with another employer (tribe).

And we should remember, there is a difference between rules and over regulation. As sailors we should understand that more than most. There are just some 'rules' we cannot escape if we are going to sail (i.e. - into the wind, 5' of keel, 4' of water) but some of the 'over regulations' are not necessary to get up to 7kts with a good breeze. So if you think you are going to escape rules by sailing alone.......then you probably should have good insurance!
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Old 26-07-2012, 09:04   #79
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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Originally Posted by AnnaMC View Post
Interesting idea. Just a thought: we have a friend that had his boat documented and incorporated, and with that he got a 30% discount at West Marine, (maybe also Defender etc). He offered to share his discount with us, but we rarely buy from WM, because they are so $$$. But for a group that needs parts and supplies fast, a "communal discount" could save big bucks.
Thank you....thank you....and....THANK YOU! This is one of the courses I am trying to navigate! I see you have been on this 'trip' before and I appreciate your input....it will surely help!
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Old 26-07-2012, 09:18   #80
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's a great book by George Orwell on communism, which would be a good read for home-schoolers. Be sure to Read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell to find out how well communism will work out in the sailing community.

In most cases, I've found that those folks who praise the virtues of communism to be ones who've decided for some reason that it would be more beneficial to their lifestyle to have other people carry the water and do the heavy lifting.... and not have to pay for the service.
And some folks would gladly "carry the water and do the heavy lifting" and not expect payment, unless a good story during that 'another amazing sunset' is considered payment.

Although not as frequent in sailing as my land based neighborhood, on the water this is the exact kind of selfishness that I try to avoid. Moving into my 40's there are many things that don't come as easy as in my 20's, but there are many folks in their 60's (and up) that I would gladly (and do) help them because of the sole reason that I CAN and they CANNOT (or can with great difficulty). I just choose to be a part of the solution and not the problem with my free will.
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Old 26-07-2012, 09:25   #81
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Communal effort has brought us to City state,,without it we would be living in solitary caves killing anyone who wanted our furs.
As to rules; even pirates and sea going nations needed rules on which to base their daily lives.
As the OP said its just a matter of agreeing on how to make em and how to break em.
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Old 26-07-2012, 09:29   #82
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

TOO MANY HAVE TRIED TO ACHIEVE UTOPIA AND FOUND IS IMPOSSIBLE. you guys who are avid book worms should have figgered that out by now also--gas been a topic of authors and others for decades if not centuries.
if folks wish to sail in a group go, is their thing--i continue to sail on my own way and to my own chosen places. i am not into others making money off my desire to sail somewhere with friends or in a group.
there are scheduled rallies on each coast--not sure about gulf of mexico. i think there is one from fla to isla mujeres, but i am not certain. i have noticed folks who sailed with rally groups tend to stick together for recreation once they arrive, as well--is interesting to watch
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Old 26-07-2012, 10:20   #83
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

I don't know if this has been done or not, but I'd love to see maintenance rallies. Basically pick 1 or 2 items of boat maintenance(bottom job, replacing lifelines with amsteel, standing/running rigging, engine work) and setup a spot to have the work done. Buy everything in bulk, reserve a couple spots at a marina with anchorages available and rotate boats in/out. The people who know how to do the work would be running management, etc.

For some of those things even if my boat wasn't there I'd drive there if it was close by just to get some experience doing that work on a variety of boats being guided by people who've done it before.
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Old 26-07-2012, 10:28   #84
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

rallies mean everyone goes same places and end up in same place....
.maintenance rally -- hail--all my travel legs are related to my own maintenance rally.....and i dont have to pay retail. or retail plus XXX percent.(minus .0X discount still equals retail plus XXXpercent. sorry.
i carry my own and find good workers or i get it done locally for good prices and excellent work. i find places to rebuild my machines and i support the locals who would have much reduced incomes due to the yottie buying from only the yotty places because is allegedly marine approved......
i seek local knowledge --never know what ye might actually learn about a region just by so doing..

oh yeah--who is going to have to take up the money for these organized rallies? and do the legwork for the group--needs to be someone who will do that-- or is checking in also up to the sailors individually--and the profits--should there be any, and losses-- they go to whom??
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Old 26-07-2012, 10:49   #85
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Have a close look at the Eu. Gorby loves it. The Wall didn't fall, it was pushed. No more Normandies, nowhere to run to. Nov '12 will be interesting...
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Old 26-07-2012, 10:57   #86
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

For those desiring to travel in groups for reasons such as commonality, tapping into local knowledge, and/or safety, there are many existing sailing groups and clubs you can join, SSCA being the largest, most international and best known with the most members. Their website and forum enable members to support, find each other and meet anywhere in the world.

There are many live-aboard cruisers who cruise when finances permit, and stay put to replenish the cruising kitty as necessary - they know wherever they go they are "home", and will find instant "friends" and assistance upon arrival. No need to join a club or tribe, by their common nature of lifestyle and obstacles they ARE one, and share a culture of looking out for and helping each other. Pass It On is often the currency to repay favors for these nomads.

The creation of a permanent traveling tribe, as Gelfling seems to be suggesting, is different from both the above. One of my favorite travel quotes (Thoreau) is, “The man who goes alone can start today; but he who travels with another must wait till that other is ready.” Weather windows dictate travel for sailors, and as someone previously pointed out, what do you do if a tribe member isn't prepared to leave with the group? All for one, one for all?? Looks like a Rule needs to be written for that circumstance.

There is one specific binding concept that hasn't been discussed in this thread yet - likely because it is not an accepted and driving part of global humanity: GOALS. My opinion is that a lack of goals is the reason for local, national, and international social, economic and environmental deterioration/corruption. Without a common goal people will fight with each other rather than for each other. Humans have a natural need for stability and to belong. Without common goals what is one to do? History shows the creation of a culture of Us and Them is easy to do, easy to join, and easy to justify to gain common support. And conflicts between Us and Them easily follow.

Gelfling, if you, or anybody, desires to form a coherent, supportive, long-term sailing group, create a Goal - your goal will attract compatible members to your group, and reduce conflict within your group and with the rest of the groups in the world.

It is unlikely that I will join your group, but that doesn't mean we won't like/respect each other and/or have positive and beneficial interactions. I have a degree in Environmental Science, and as a sailor two of my interests are to study and help ameliorate the problems of invasive species and plastic pollution in the oceans. Those are goals, my goals. They are international, do not conflict with politics, religion, social class, dirt dwellers or sailors, and make the world a better place. My goals are an examples of positive, long-term, beneficial goals, naturally, without rules, supported by anybody with compatible desires and skills, binding us as part of a "tribe", and goals that other groups with different goals can be physically, financially, verbally, socially supportive of, or not, as well.

I'm a simple, independent soul, not into Us and Them groups or situations, neither a leader nor a follower; I prefer volitional team work, communication and cooperation. I don't think My Way is the Right Way, but having traveled and lived in more places than most of the people in the world, 50 years of those experiences have led me to conclude that the creation/establishment of goals would alter social, political, educational, etc structures and activities in a way that could benefit most people, groups, cultures and countries.

* * * * * * *

Everywhere is nowhere. When a person spends all his time in foreign travel, he ends by having many acquaintances, but no friends.

Just to travel is rather boring, but to travel with a purpose is educational and exciting.

You do not travel if you are afraid of the unknown, you travel for the unknown, that reveals you with yourself.

There are no foreign lands. It is the traveler only who is foreign.

A good traveler has no fixed plan and is not intent on arriving.

Nonconformists travel as a rule in bunches. You rarely find a nonconformist who goes it alone. And woe to him inside a nonconformist clique who does not conform with nonconformity.

People don't take trips--trips take people.
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Old 26-07-2012, 11:04   #87
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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A tribe sounds the closest to what OP was suggesting (I think) - appreciate that lots of other "Cruising Community" options available, as mention on this thread. Of course a Tribe won't be for everyone, but does not have to be.

Maybe make the Tribe into full members (who make most of the decisions) and associates (who can drop in and drop out).




I have never been into the "Hippy thing" - and certainly I would have no interest in a commune where the idea is to live dirt poor and barter beans & rice between each other (errr, I mean live in a self sustainable way ) away from the joys of the modern world.......but a Tribe that was willing to also be part of civilisation might be of interest. By that I mean being very willing to make money (from outside the Tribe), both collectively and individually - between the Tribe certainly barter and simply lending a hand would be more the norm, but cash also not being frowned upon.

For that I am thinking the annual Migration route, including (for a US originating Tribe) back to the US - both as somewhere folks can make money (with no visa problems - and the money earned goes further elsewhere) and also for family reasons. Whether that be Winter. Summer or another time of year...could possibly even commercialise the annual migration south (and back north?) by taking along folks (newbies?) just for their first big trip (before waving them bye bye!), and possibly also selling them "how to live on a boat" etc etc courses (kinda like a mini / more informal ARC / Baja?).....all that on a Tribe basis (i.e. money goes into the Tribal Treasury).

I could see an attraction for folks with kids onboard (shared child care / schooling and simply freinds) and possibly those of more mature years - as well as those on a budget that does require topping up now and again to maintain an endless cruising lifestyle.

My thinking is that membership of the Tribe itself won't pay all the bills (even on a Barter basis) - just that being part of would provide some financial benefits (as well as the social side and non cash benefits of being part of a group "pulling together") - whether from Group buying power or Group earnings. But at the end of the day up to each to provide for self - otherwise the caravan (Tribe) does move on.......actually the moving on thing would be a good way to ditch those who are a drag on the Tribal resources (whether cash or time) as am sure their will be those whose boats are tied together with wishful thinking and string and who expect others to pick up the slack / bill to keep them on the road (sea!)........

Probably easiest to manage if the Tribe was based around a religion! Inventing my own Religion / Sect / Cult is on my bucket list........
When working around Koreans I was told of a program that they worked under, It was called a "Key Club" wherein everyone kicked in a certain amount of money to a fund and anyone that gave and became a member was able to draw upon the "fund"...They would all work on a project until it was finished and then pay back more than they borrowed..This is against the law in America if you are dealing with business contracts but would work great if it was a group of people not after legal contracts and just wanting to take care of the group...DVC
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Old 26-07-2012, 15:09   #88
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

Zee - As stated in earlier posts, I would NOT think that a UTOPIA is what is being reached for....at least not in my point of view. And as I have lived in 5 diff countries on 3 different continents, I understand your view on 'using the locals'. And having someone much like yourself that 'know the locals' in your locale is more of what the idea is. And as far as 'purchasing power' this is more aimed toward 'non-third world' areas where purchasing power has a merit. And I (nor anyone that I have seen so far) as stated that this would be a 'profitable' venture for the sake of making a 'profit'. But in the event that it was something a group would want to look at, there are many profit sharing practices already being used that could be a model.....if needed.

ShipShape - Of course....not every one has a compulsion to be a part of (a) society, I can understand that. I also agree with your statement of a needed goal(s). But if you would have read the entire thread you would have seen that ideas for these goals have been mentioned, but if it would be the group's (tribe's) goals then that is something that would be voted on, I am sure. But the fact that you make this statement "There is one specific binding concept that hasn't been discussed in this thread yet - likely because it is not an accepted and driving part of global humanity: GOALS." because it diminishes your credibility to contribute to the group (aka...this forum) that you are so opposed to being a part of.

Lauder - YES! This could definitely be another aspect of what the tribe could attain.
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Old 26-07-2012, 16:02   #89
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

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TOO MANY HAVE TRIED TO ACHIEVE UTOPIA AND FOUND IS IMPOSSIBLE. you guys who are avid book worms should have figgered that out by now also--gas been a topic of authors and others for decades if not centuries.
I suspect Utopia may be aiming high - but IMO no problem in having lofty ambitions, as long as the possibility(?!) of not acheiving them is also planned for.......rather than it coming as a surprise .

In respect of the Tribe, the oh so predictable occurance will be people who make all right noises about sharing, helping the group, blah, blah, blah - but in practice are simply takers, even if they do not always recognise that in themselves. Start off knowing that and you are half way to it not being a problem when it happens. The other half of the solution is having a means to deal with such people decided in advance, whether that be telling 'em to feck orf or tying to an anchor .


Although I have already stated my view that rules are needed (just not fascism!), nonetheless Planet DOJ is a world without any rules . Not to say that I simply make sh#t up as I go along (well, not always ) - but I do like to start with my own blank sheet of paper. and if "your" rules work for me I will use them . and if they don't? well, that depends on circumstances ..........but just like most everyone else, at least a basic framework does work for me. even if out of laziness .


and just to make clear, at this point in my life I am unlikely to join any Tribe - but when circumstances change, then who knows? In the interim nice to kick around a few ideas.......this really could be called blue sky thinking
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Old 26-07-2012, 22:51   #90
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Re: Sailing Commune ?

We would love to find a group of like minded cruisers to sail with, however, we cruisers are a pretty independent sort. I think it unlikely that even two boats would travel the same route the same days for very long. Some like to tour the islands, others get their pleasure from diving or snorkeling the reefs.
I've heard of flotillas that do several week cruises together, but I believe most are weekenders on a summer cruise, rather than full time cruisers.
A larger vessel as a commune is an interesting idea, but big boats cost big bucks to run & if folks are free to come & go as they please, how are you ever going to be sure you have enough crew & financing for the next leg?
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