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Old 23-07-2012, 08:37   #31
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Re: Sailing Commune?

Ok, we've had a commune discussion, which has evolved into a tribal relationship. I suppose the next iteration is to form a religious community. Kool-Aid anyone?
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Old 23-07-2012, 12:41   #32
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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Originally Posted by monstads View Post
Although not being in line with the hippy commune thinking, but more towards the capitalistic side of things, the idea of a virtual, barter based currency might be something to build a community around . The sailing community might actually be perfectly suited for it, if the unit (boat buck!) was something fairly large (1 hr or task = 1 buck), relatively cheap to initially buy (easy to get in), and closer tied to time vs skill. The idea would be to not ruin the "helping someone out, just because " yet for those in the community, it would help build some sense of "tribe", help in paying it forward, and could solve both the freeloading problem (out of bucks? have no skills? How about bottom cleaning? ) as well as disconnected and infrequently participating members.

For example, i would be happy to trade a couple hours of computer work for the same amount in babysitting my kids. I typically charge a beer or two, because I generally only help friends, and I know that sooner or later they'll help me with something. Cruising, you may or not run into someone again, and you may or may not be as lucky when you need help, but if I "got" a virtual buck that someone would accept in the next port to watch the kids, or look at the diesel, or something I needed at the time, I think it could be interesting.

Anyone actually participating in some of the barter networks already out there?
The Boat Buck idea has merit - But I think the trick is not to even try and solely run the Tribe on those (nor to welcome folks who seek only to do that - a successful Tribe (AKA a country) needs to pull in resources (and cash!) from outside the Group to remain succesful.

The idea reminds me of the Shared Sailing Organisations where in exchange for dirt cheap boating you also have to put in a certain number of hours "hands on" (whether that be with a tin of paint and / or on the paperwork side - there is always paperwork , and someone has to do it). Am not quite thinking "forced labour" but certainly an expected (required?) minimum contribution of time (and skills) to the Tribe, how that is divied up being another thing (and argument? ).
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Old 23-07-2012, 14:09   #33
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Re: Sailing Commune?

One issue with barter currency is that it is illegal in many, if not all, countries to print your own money. Barter buck ideas have to be set up very carefully if you wish to keep within the law. I would guess that they mostly care about the taxes being circumvented by such schemes.
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Old 23-07-2012, 14:36   #34
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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One issue with barter currency is that it is illegal in many, if not all, countries to print your own money. Barter buck ideas have to be set up very carefully if you wish to keep within the law. I would guess that they mostly care about the taxes being circumvented by such schemes.
and also control.

I must confess that i was rather hoping OP would have chimed back in by now...........
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Old 23-07-2012, 15:08   #35
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pirate Re: Sailing Commune?

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One issue with barter currency is that it is illegal in many, if not all, countries to print your own money. Barter buck ideas have to be set up very carefully if you wish to keep within the law. I would guess that they mostly care about the taxes being circumvented by such schemes.
Thats where 'Monopoly' comes into play...lol
As to a 'Commune' there's been one on Culatra off the Faro/Olhau lagoon for years.. its 90% Wharrams that access a pond at high water then beach and stay...
first time I was there maybe 11 boats were hanging out... nice place and pretty cheap living... very few outsiders just the folk from the fishing village who were friendly..
Last time there much had changed on the Island... instead of the 2 ferries a day there was 1 every 1/2hr and tourists all over the place...
Its what happens when word spreads about a nice place... not many Wharrams there either... but its still a great stop over on the Algarve..
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Old 23-07-2012, 15:14   #36
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Re: Sailing Commune?

And here I am DOJ! You see, I have this addiction...in that if I don't partake every now and then my friends and family stop associating with me, it is a nasty disease called SAILING! As it stands right now, I am a 'weekend sailor' and so I tend to be on the water every weekend. This weekend I sailed with a Muslim in the Chesapeake Bay! To me that is like hitting the social bingo. (I will talk to anyone at the marina, and introduced myself to 2 new families that have showed in the last week, but I really enjoy the diversity of the human race.) We hoisted his genny on the new rolling furler and then took her out to see how she acted. He has two daughters the same age as mine, so while we were out trimming sheets and such, the girls were doing their girl things below. GREAT WEEKEND!


Anyway, back to the discussion. Some of the constant contributors have shown up and THANK YOU! I like all the discussion about the barter system. And then the rebuttal about tax and legal implication of such. I may have a solution to that one. Excuse me to those outside the US - I have lived in 2 diff countries in EU and 2 diff countries in Asia, but this was in teen years and I never studied business practices at that time! But I have studied a bit about some of the US business structures that could help with the IRS view of such activities. This tribe (thanks for those that help me come to the right terminology on this one, as my family roots are from Scotland I am also liking the term CLAN as well. ) could be formed as an operating business. Just in what I know...and not hearing the re-butte from anyone, I would say this could be started as and LLC with all the member getting the benefit of reporting gain/loss on personal income taxes. Once the tribe has established a 'rule system' (aka....operating agreement) then it could seek 501C3 status as an NPO. BUT NOT AS A CHURCH, not for me anyway. As much as I kid that the sea is my Church, I have seen that ones religious preference can be as unique to them as their hair/eye color and that a group is much better served with many different hair/eye color (aka...skills). I understand that some don't see this as I do, and I respect that. But like I stated earlier, this is not about segregation from society, but building a smaller community within society.

There are a lot of references to being apart of this at some time in the past, and 'back in the day'. Why have we, as a people, separated from this?

For all of those that have posted "Well sailing in general is a community", I can agree more! I love it! Just as motorcyclist are (well in US anyway). It just seems that bikers are more 'organized' than sailors. The nature of a motorbike is not unlike that of a sailboat.....freedom. Right? What if they want to 'separate' from the pack for a day or week, does someone think there is a problem with this? And with 'little' areas like the Chesapeake bay, there are plenty of areas all over the planet that would allow the community to get there and then split (or stay together for those that choose, like families that have kids that share time) and then regroup when it is time to 'migrate' to the next climate zone. Technology is plenty available to keep folks in touch.

For those opposed to idea because there have been traditions of folks in communal conditions that didn't think they had to pull their share, then a business structure might offer an answer to this as well. I have hired/fired enough to understand what you are saying. As the hiring manager, I knew what my responsibilities were to the group as a whole and that I wasn't to hire someone so that another employee would double his workload because of the hire. All workplaces are communities too, just as a family is but you can't fire your dad or mom! What I suggest is something right in the middle of the two.

Thanks again for all the great info!
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Old 23-07-2012, 19:08   #37
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Re: Sailing Commune?

There is yet more problems in paradise (in fact, I think we are just getting started) And that is the amount of work needed to produce one boat buck. You could say that one boat buck is worth one hour of your work, but some will say their highly skilled labor will be worth 10 boat bucks and hour and so forth. That will make the common laborers angry and then you have people going in every direction because they are not appreciated.
Utopian societies have often formed. I do not know of many that have lasted more than a few years.
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Old 23-07-2012, 19:23   #38
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Re: Sailing Commune?

i would love to set up a sailing commune i have a 63 ft yacht in need of a refit,allready done 2 circumnavigations on it,i would be interested if like minded people could come up with some proposals.
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:00   #39
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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Utopian societies have often formed. I do not know of many that have lasted more than a few years.
I've always wanted to set up a utopian community where, before you can join, you have to read Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Blithedale Romance.
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:01   #40
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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I've always wanted to set up a utopian community where, before you can join, you have to read Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Blithedale Romance.
links please
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:06   #41
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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links please
The Blithedale Romance by Nathaniel Hawthorne - Project Gutenberg
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:16   #42
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Re: Sailing Commune?

thanks
"Oh, we women judge one another by tokens that escape the obtuseness of masculine perceptions!" said Zenobia. "There is no proof which you would be likely to appreciate, except the needle marks on the tip of her forefinger. Then, my supposition perfectly accounts for her paleness, her nervousness, and her wretched fragility. Poor thing! She has been stifled with the heat of a salamander stove, in a small, close room, and has drunk coffee, and fed upon doughnuts, raisins, candy, and all such trash, till she is scarcely half alive; and so, as she has hardly any physique, a poet like Mr. Miles Coverdale may be allowed to think her spiritual."

"Look at her now!" whispered I....................

oh how! the women allways suffer mens aspirations
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:26   #43
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Re: Sailing Commune?

Here on the Rio Dulce last year there was a "DIY Sailboat Summit". Lots of young "new age" types (for lack of a better term) who I expect might be interested in a "sailing commune". See posts here on CF and their web site:

DIY Sailboat Summit - Rio Dulce - February 22-29, 2012

DIY Sailboat Meetup
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:27   #44
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Doing some checking, it appears that a style of barter system called LETS (Local exchange trading system) is fairly common out there. There does seen to be some issues with taxation , in particular for professional tradesmen and merchants. Besides google, this link is decent: http://www.letslinkuk.net/home/theory.htm

Some of systems work on full transparency. Everyone's balance and transactions are public (to the members). Gotta think about that one, but I could see some benefit to that, especially if the system did have floating evaluation (as newt suggested), where if I want to charge more pr hr for my computer skills than I want to pay for babysitting, I could do it, but everyone would know that.

My point was more about the tribe idea and have something that would tie the group together. One feature in lets system, is that you may publish what you can offer, and what you need. Both physical items and skills. Sort of like craigslist, but hopefully less scary, and paid for in virtual currency.

I don't believe the goal should be utopian, nor terribly altruistic. For the commune/tribe/clan , the barter network thing is just another way to form bonds , provide benefits and keep the lazy ones at bay..
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Old 23-07-2012, 22:05   #45
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Re: Sailing Commune?

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Ok, we've had a commune discussion, which has evolved into a tribal relationship. I suppose the next iteration is to form a religious community. Kool-Aid anyone?
In college we used to make a drink called Jonestown, possibly Kool-Aid and Everclear. I'm surprised I can remember that much.

Some interesting ideas and outside info being presented here. A capitalistic reminder: A sailing tribe can barter services among each other, but virtually everything must be imported into the tribe from outside - all tribe members are dependent on consuming manufactured products: zincs, flour, sail thread, standing rigging, toilet paper, etc. A dirt dwelling manufacturing society is necessary to produce these things, and money is necessary to buy them. A sailing tribe couldn't exist for very long without money to purchase manufactured products, which would be imported into the tribe to be bartered for services among the members. Without a steady influx of money the tribe will quickly dissolve.
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