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Old 13-01-2016, 10:06   #301
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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If the intent was to broadly include other types of shelter it's reasonable to expect Trust Doctrine to have used the term 'informal housing'.
Yeah, good luck making that stick in court.
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Old 13-01-2016, 10:46   #302
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Yeah, good luck making that stick in court.
Hey. There are occasions in life when ya just have to throw it out there to see if it'll stick.

But, seriously, proof is necessary to determine whether or not a boat is actually being lived in before provisions of the Trust Doctrine can be applied. And, at what point do you differentiate between simply 'spending a lot of time on your boat' or living on it? The challenge authorities face trying to enforce no liveaboard Ordinances, particularly outside a marina, is they simply do not have the manpower necessary to monitor 'comings and goings' by boat owners. So, while we may argue non-stop about the significance of the Trust Doctrine, it's really only an academic exercise in futility. So, henceforth I'll leave the debate for y'all to chew on.
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Old 13-01-2016, 12:35   #303
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Hey. There are occasions in life when ya just have to throw it out there to see if it'll stick.

But, seriously, proof is necessary to determine whether or not a boat is actually being lived in before provisions of the Trust Doctrine can be applied. And, at what point do you differentiate between simply 'spending a lot of time on your boat' or living on it? The challenge authorities face trying to enforce no liveaboard Ordinances, particularly outside a marina, is they simply do not have the manpower necessary to monitor 'comings and goings' by boat owners. So, while we may argue non-stop about the significance of the Trust Doctrine, it's really only an academic exercise in futility. So, henceforth I'll leave the debate for y'all to chew on.
In our marina, boaters are allowed to stay on their boats 14 days a month after which they need liveaboard status. This is monitored by counting the number and time of gate entries plus other means. Obviously, monitoring moored or anchored yachts would be more difficult. Plus, it sounds like RB has no set time limit?
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Old 13-01-2016, 12:40   #304
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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...it sounds like RB has no set time limit?
No, Richardson Bay has a 72-hour limit, extendable by permission of the harbormaster. Essentially unenforced to this point however. Wrong's position is that enforced or not, the RBRA has no authority to set a time limit.
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Old 13-01-2016, 13:05   #305
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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No, Richardson Bay has a 72-hour limit, extendable by permission of the harbormaster. Essentially unenforced to this point however. Wrong's position is that enforced or not, the RBRA has no authority to set a time limit.
Please post the Ordinance you're referring to. It's not clear to me what you're talking about.

The RBRA has no authority or power to restrict or prohibit anchoring in Richardson Bay. This is all I've said even remotely related to time limits.
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Old 13-01-2016, 13:17   #306
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Please post the Ordinance you're referring to. It's not clear to me what you're talking about.

The RBRA has no authority or power to restrict or prohibit anchoring in Richardson Bay. This is all I've said even remotely related to time limits.
I never claimed any ordinance as a source. I'm merely repeating what I've read on the RBRA web site.
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Old 13-01-2016, 14:21   #307
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

http://rbra.ca.gov/0rd87-1.pdf

Ordinance 87-1 Section 6
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Old 13-01-2016, 14:39   #308
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

My mistake- 30 days time limit.
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Old 13-01-2016, 14:59   #309
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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My mistake- 30 days time limit.
Your first I presume...
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Old 13-01-2016, 15:56   #310
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Your first I presume...
No, there was that time I thought I was wrong...
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Old 13-01-2016, 17:03   #311
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

The Public Trust Doctrine is VERY important to boaters. Having it enforced is about the only thing that keeps the waterfront available for marinas, boatyards, and other water dependent (public trust) uses. The fact that the anchorages are available for boaters in transit is a great thing. I understand that the OP doesn't like the fact that the Doctrine doesn't permit housing as a public trust use. He should be happy--as I am--that housing as ancillary to an actual public trust use IS permissible.

Anyone who thinks there are NOT plenty of anchorages along the California coast isn't in transit along the California coast. It is true that, in the Bay and along the coast, many are exposed to winds from the south and east. Even so, there are plenty of places to anchor. Sure, it's not like every 3 hours there's a place to stop, but there are plenty of places to anchor and even stay a while. Yes, you may have to keep moving if there's a southerly OR you'll have to be near one of the few sheltered from the S and E. OR you'll have to watch the weather and use marinas from time to time.

In the Bay area...the Delta is full of places to anchor and you can always find a spot sheltered from a prevailing wind. From there, you've got anchoring in the Napa River in the Mare Island Strait, China Camp, Clipper Cove, Paradise Cove, Belvadere Cove (a bit shallow), a calm weather spot on the back side of Angel Island, a few spots behind Alameda and Oakland Estuary (shallow), a spot over there by Brickyard Cove that looks like it would be sheltered from the east but not the south, a few spots along the west side of the Bay as you go south including a huge area in front of Brisbane Marina (deep) and few areas near Coyote Point (shallow I hear), several spots in Redwood Creek (72 hr or permit needed), some areas south of there in the Bay right before it shallows up going under the bridge in the south-most part of the Bay. Then there's Aquatic Park in the city and the fort overlook/Horseshoe Cove (don't know if they're still letting folks anchor there while there's construction underway?) then Richardson Bay. I'm sure I'm leaving out many spots but I haven't anchored at all of them. I know there are a few spots up the Napa River and up towards Petaluma but haven't anchored so can't speak about them.

If you get yourself outside of the Bay (e.g. in transit), you can enjoy anchoring at Drake's Bay which is only a daysail out of the Gate. Then there's Tomales Bay (quite protected but a bit shallow to get into) and a spot right outside of Bodega Bay that a friend of mine has anchored several times in settled weather. There are spots north along the California coast including the Russian River, and an anchorage just this side of Point Arena as well as Fort Brag and a bunch of little spots between the two. You could go further up to Crescent City and beyond but most Bay sailors aren't likely to want to do that. Going south you can anchor in the Pillar Point Harbor, and there's a lovely but admittedly roadstead anchorage that somehow my husband and I have managed to have to anchor at 3 times at Aņo Nuevo (bad timing), then the one at Santa Cruz (always miss it and end up at Aņo Nuevo when traveling north ) and the little anchorage at Monterrey. Then you've got one at Carmel/Pebble Beach though it can be either too deep/rolly or too full of kelp if you get in close, one on the backside of Point Sur (always forget the name...Pheiffer?) and a long stretch until getting to the huge anchorage at San Simeon...then there are many, many spots to the south: Morro Bay, Port San Luis, and tons of anchorages available in the Channel Islands.

If someone with a seaworthy sailboat is on a tight budget, the wind is free (for travel) and all these anchorages are, too. There are several in SoCal on the coast but they do carry time limits and require the people keep moving, for sure.
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Old 13-01-2016, 19:46   #312
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
The Public Trust Doctrine is VERY important to boaters. Having it enforced is about the only thing that keeps the waterfront available for marinas, boatyards, and other water dependent (public trust) uses. The fact that the anchorages are available for boaters in transit is a great thing. I understand that the OP doesn't like the fact that the Doctrine doesn't permit housing as a public trust use. He should be happy--as I am--that housing as ancillary to an actual public trust use IS permissible.

Anyone who thinks there are NOT plenty of anchorages along the California coast isn't in transit along the California coast. It is true that, in the Bay and along the coast, many are exposed to winds from the south and east. Even so, there are plenty of places to anchor. Sure, it's not like every 3 hours there's a place to stop, but there are plenty of places to anchor and even stay a while. Yes, you may have to keep moving if there's a southerly OR you'll have to be near one of the few sheltered from the S and E. OR you'll have to watch the weather and use marinas from time to time.

In the Bay area...the Delta is full of places to anchor and you can always find a spot sheltered from a prevailing wind. From there, you've got anchoring in the Napa River in the Mare Island Strait, China Camp, Clipper Cove, Paradise Cove, Belvadere Cove (a bit shallow), a calm weather spot on the back side of Angel Island, a few spots behind Alameda and Oakland Estuary (shallow), a spot over there by Brickyard Cove that looks like it would be sheltered from the east but not the south, a few spots along the west side of the Bay as you go south including a huge area in front of Brisbane Marina (deep) and few areas near Coyote Point (shallow I hear), several spots in Redwood Creek (72 hr or permit needed), some areas south of there in the Bay right before it shallows up going under the bridge in the south-most part of the Bay. Then there's Aquatic Park in the city and the fort overlook/Horseshoe Cove (don't know if they're still letting folks anchor there while there's construction underway?) then Richardson Bay. I'm sure I'm leaving out many spots but I haven't anchored at all of them. I know there are a few spots up the Napa River and up towards Petaluma but haven't anchored so can't speak about them.

If you get yourself outside of the Bay (e.g. in transit), you can enjoy anchoring at Drake's Bay which is only a daysail out of the Gate. Then there's Tomales Bay (quite protected but a bit shallow to get into) and a spot right outside of Bodega Bay that a friend of mine has anchored several times in settled weather. There are spots north along the California coast including the Russian River, and an anchorage just this side of Point Arena as well as Fort Brag and a bunch of little spots between the two. You could go further up to Crescent City and beyond but most Bay sailors aren't likely to want to do that. Going south you can anchor in the Pillar Point Harbor, and there's a lovely but admittedly roadstead anchorage that somehow my husband and I have managed to have to anchor at 3 times at Aņo Nuevo (bad timing), then the one at Santa Cruz (always miss it and end up at Aņo Nuevo when traveling north ) and the little anchorage at Monterrey. Then you've got one at Carmel/Pebble Beach though it can be either too deep/rolly or too full of kelp if you get in close, one on the backside of Point Sur (always forget the name...Pheiffer?) and a long stretch until getting to the huge anchorage at San Simeon...then there are many, many spots to the south: Morro Bay, Port San Luis, and tons of anchorages available in the Channel Islands.

If someone with a seaworthy sailboat is on a tight budget, the wind is free (for travel) and all these anchorages are, too. There are several in SoCal on the coast but they do carry time limits and require the people keep moving, for sure.
Wow quite a few spots and the Delta is free too. Bottom line RB needs to be cleaned up.
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Old 13-01-2016, 22:21   #313
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

So from reading the ordinances, it seems the harbormaster can grant up to 3 months stay at a time. And it reads ( between the lines ) to me that this can be indefinite.

They are probably trying to slowly, over geologic periods of time, push people out and not trying to make state employees feel like the gestapo.
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Old 13-01-2016, 22:28   #314
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

Just a note that there is now no anchoring in the Napa River in the Mare Island Strait. I was asked to leave one night at 9:30 last summer. You also can not anchor in the bay by Benicia anymore or so I was informed one evening by the Salano marine Police.

Oakland Estuary, well the oakland police will ask you to leave. There is a spot over by brickward cove for a boat to anchor in the rare east winds.

Paradise cove is lovely, except for the constant ferry wakes from 5AM onward. Though they stop at 9PM. Parts of angel island on the east side has a fouled bottom, and easy to loose an anchor.

Aquatic Park sailboats can anchor for a few days. Power boats are prohibited.

No question there are tons of places to anchor in the delta. Fewer places to buy grocery's there, though I enjoy it lots. Very nice. Many folks anchor out in the Delta. Some there for years. Not a problem.

Russian River, LOL, That was a solid above sea level bar there till three weeks ago. When the rains washed it away. Kayaks might enter in on calm weather. Heck a kayaker died there a few weeks ago. No sailboat could get past the bar. Sure in calm weather there are tons of places to drop the hook along the coast. But that can change rather quickly and we know it does. Not really doable now is it.

There are boats anchored in Tomales Bay. The bar needs to be crossed in the early morning before the winds come up. It's a cool foggy place with again, no grocerys. Folks also need to eat.

Yes there are road stead anchorages up and down the coast, though for the liveaboard, getting groceries, dumping trash, filling water, etc or even going to work or a cup of coffee might be a bit tough. Plus for the poor sod with a powerboat and 20 dollars in his or her pocket, well their not going very far.

These guys are not cruisers. Most are older, retired or with health issues.

Marina's will turn away wood boats, which many in the bay are. So for them, popping into a marina even if they had the money for it, really isn't an option.

I'm all for removing boats people are not living on and are abandoned. But the question is where will the people on the boats they call home go to. Should we just hand out cardboard boxes and happy meals. I don't think so.

Pity I did not win the power ball tonight. I would have purchased new (ok good used) boats for all the anchorouts, for them to live on and hauled the old boats away. I would have built several homeless shelters in SF too. But nope, not happening.

Alas, they will have to get along without my help for now. That's what I would have done. What would you do. What can we all do to help.
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Old 14-01-2016, 07:03   #315
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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