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Old 11-01-2016, 11:32   #256
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
I dunno. Maybe Wrong's right But until he proves that in a court of law, the RBRA has authority over anchoring in Richardson Bay.
I don't know if it works that way. I don't think a non existent law gives someone authority to arrest them or make them move.
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Old 11-01-2016, 11:36   #257
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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I don't know if it works that way. I don't think a non existent law gives someone authority to arrest them or make them move.
You don't know if the law is non-existent or not.
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Old 11-01-2016, 11:41   #258
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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You don't know if the law is non-existent or not.
Correct. It's my faith in government that if the law existed these people would have been out of there 72 hours after dropping anchor.

ETA: They could stay all of the 72 hours but at the beginning of the 73rd hour is when all hell would break loose and they had better be on their way. I didn't want it to sound like their anchor had to be off the seabed within the 72 hours. They get 72 hours. If they know what's good for them they'll be out of there because the 73rd hour is going to be jam packed with law enforcement, though.
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Old 11-01-2016, 11:46   #259
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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It's my faith in government that if the law existed these people would have been out of there 72 hours after dropping anchor.
That's a ridiculous statement. By that logic, no crime or violation of any law would ever occur anywhere. What makes you think that the authorities have the resources to constantly monitor and take action against hundreds of illegal anchor-outs?
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Old 11-01-2016, 12:06   #260
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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That's a ridiculous statement. By that logic, no crime or violation of any law would ever occur anywhere. What makes you think that the authorities have the resources to constantly monitor and take action against hundreds of illegal anchor-outs?
That is actually a pearl of wisdom right there. If law enforcement were big enough there would be no crime.

I vote we raise taxes until the authorities have enough officers to solve the anchoring problem. And then stop.

Honestly, your problem is with government. Either they're not doing their job here or they haven't yet hired the people to do it.
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Old 11-01-2016, 12:24   #261
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

Hmmm I personally would rather have a few people get away with breaking the law than live Ina police state. And yes I do fully understand what that means. And yes even in a police state the right people get to continually get to break laws or get them rewritten to suit themselves.

S are theses boats fugley, yeap every picture I've looked at shows me boats I wouldn't want next to me. Is there a law that says they must go? Missed the link up there but I admit I may have missed a post or two in this thread.

Are they polluting? Can't tell from the photos if they are or not. Does the land around them pollute? Based on the earlier references I'd have to say that the land is producing far more pollution than these crappy looking boats. Does that mean we should ignore these boats? Didn't say that but what are the options? Should we force an unseaworthy (not sure that is the case in all instances) vessel to attempt to move elsewhere? That doesn't make sense.

Should their be a facility to allow for shore based toilets or pump outs? Might be the simplest /cheapest solution. And yes some people would abuse this, they already do so on land. Dickheads will be dickheads no matter where they live.

Will the current "solution / discussion" stop people from living like this? Seriously? I don't think so.


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Old 11-01-2016, 12:39   #262
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I can't find where a person anchoring for a year or two or ten, is against the public trust. Public trust, means it's open to all and can not be regulated by government to limit access. Perhaps you can point me to the section of the public trust code that limits anchoring.

As to fishing and boating in Richardson bay, there are tons of kayaks, runabounds and sailboats that travel about the bay every day. Some at quite fast speeds. The vast majority of the bay is open to all types of water activities. Lord knows I never have a problem finding a place the drop the hook the few times a year I visit there.
Sailorchic -- lots of opinions on this thread for sure. The Public Trust Doctrine is specific and narrow (not all public lands are created equal it seems...) There are some good resources online about the California Public Trust Doctrine. This document here is a pdf of a powerpoint presentation prepared by the California State Lands Commission (SLC) and presented in 2007 in a series of public workshops to educate the public on the Doctrine. If you take the time to go through the presentation, you'll be better informed about what is--and is not--a public trust use of the navigable waterways and the tidelands immediately adjacent them. Many concerns have to do with the adjacent tidelands so that is usually the focus of these sorts of presentations.

From this reference document from the Port of San Francisco we get an informative quote from SLC (bolded by me):

Uses of trust lands, whether granted to a local agency or administered by the State directly, are generally limited to those that are water dependent or related, and include commerce, fisheries and navigation, environmental preservation and recreation. Public trust uses include, among others, ports, marinas, docks and wharves, buoys, hunting, commercial and sport fishing, bathing, swimming and boating. Public trust lands may also be kept in their natural state for habitat, wildlife refuges, scientific study, or open space. Ancillary or incidental uses, that is, uses that directly promote trust uses, are directly supportive and necessary for trust uses, or that accommodate the public’s enjoyment of trust lands, are also permitted.

From the same reference document:

"Since trust lands are held in trust for the people of California, trust law recognizes restaurants, hotels, and visitor-serving retail as appropriate ancillary uses that further public enjoyment of waterfront areas.

Generally, local-serving uses (such as a grocery store) that do not require a waterfront location and private uses such as housing are prohibited on public trust property.
"

I hope the above information clarifies a few things for you. The Public Trust Doctrine doesn't preclude anchoring of boats in navigation--though we see there may be appropriate time limits put in place to assure uses of the anchorages are in keeping with the Public Trust.

The Doctrine does exclude uses that do not require a waterfront (or on water) location and private uses. Housing is both private and doesn't require a waterfront or on water use. Therein lies the problem for boat-dwellers who do not use their boats as boats. Their use is just a form of housing and that is a use not consistent with the Public Trust Doctrine. The easy fix is to use a boat as a boat (that means move it and of course it must be sufficiently seaworthy and safe vessel to be used) and then it really doesn't matter (in terms of Public Trust) if it's ugly as sin because it's a boat in the navigable wateways, not just housing that doesn't belong there.

I hope the above information and links are helpful to you. You can find additional information on the SLC site here as well.
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Old 11-01-2016, 13:17   #263
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Hmmm I personally would rather have a few people get away with breaking the law than live Ina police state.
I agree that a police state is not a very good thing at all. And yes we do have lots and lots of people who get away with breaking the law. Nation wide only 62% of murders and 40% of rapes are ever cleared (solved).
Then there is the whole issue of ethnicity and profiling.
My guess is that if the community of full time live aboards permanently anchored in Richardson Bay was comprised primarily of US citizens who were originally from Mexico, Guatemala, Ethiopia, Sierra Leon, Cambodia, or Iraq they would be run out of town before sunset.
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Old 11-01-2016, 13:17   #264
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Generally, local-serving uses (such as a grocery store) that do not require a waterfront location and private uses such as housing are prohibited on public trust property.[/I]
Or, as has been stated multiple times here (but never refuted or even acknowledged by the anchor-out supporters), these people have no more right to live where they are than I have to tow a trailer into Yosemite and permanently ensconce myself on the valley floor next to the river.
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Old 11-01-2016, 13:25   #265
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Or, as has been stated multiple times here (but never refuted or even acknowledged by the anchor-out supporters), these people have no more right to live where they are than I have to tow a trailer into Yosemite and permanently ensconce myself on the valley floor next to the river.
Tons of stuff on the interwebs:

Squatting on public land
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Old 11-01-2016, 13:28   #266
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Or, as has been stated multiple times here (but never refuted or even acknowledged by the anchor-out supporters), these people have no more right to live where they are than I have to tow a trailer into Yosemite and permanently ensconce myself on the valley floor next to the river.
Wrong again my friend.
As a US citizen you can invoke your right to the 2nd amendment, arm yourself to the teeth and live by the river in Yosemite Valley for the rest of your life.
Might not be for very long but it would be the rest of your life...
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Old 11-01-2016, 13:46   #267
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
Sailorchic -- lots of opinions on this thread for sure. The Public Trust Doctrine is specific and narrow (not all public lands are created equal it seems...) There are some good resources online about the California Public Trust Doctrine. This document here is a pdf of a powerpoint presentation prepared by the California State Lands Commission (SLC) and presented in 2007 in a series of public workshops to educate the public on the Doctrine. If you take the time to go through the presentation, you'll be better informed about what is--and is not--a public trust use of the navigable waterways and the tidelands immediately adjacent them. Many concerns have to do with the adjacent tidelands so that is usually the focus of these sorts of presentations.
Ah, yes. But show me please where the CFR states a boat can't anchor in navigable water or there is a time limit in the public trust document. A state powerpoint is actually not the code or legal doc. I really am interested as I can't find a time limit in the public trust. While houses are generally excluded. A boat is not a fixture structure

Though FB is right that the RBRA which was specifically created in the 1985 to deal with the anchor outs, does limit time to 3 days without a permit and over 90 days with a permit. That no one ever gets a permit, is a minor sticky point. Thirty years later, it still looks the same.
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Old 11-01-2016, 14:29   #268
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

He was kind enough not to say, "and throw you in water over your head."


There's that.
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Old 11-01-2016, 14:35   #269
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

The relatively poor have been anchoring in Richardson Bay long before the wealthy had homes in the surrounding hills from which they have decreed that the poor should leave because they are an eyesore and unruly.

When I pass by the anchorage I find much more interesting to see the less than beautiful boats than if the boats were all very pretty and expensive....which is common, typical and boring.

I would rather not see the Disneyfication of Richardson Bay. The surrounding area is already Disneyfied for the tourists and the wealthy. I have seen everything from naked hippies to someone pissing in my direction standing on an old wood hull that is well over 100 years old. Which actually is more interesting than someones Oyster 82.
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Old 11-01-2016, 14:56   #270
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Re: Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

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I would rather not see the Disneyfication of Richardson Bay. The surrounding area is already Disneyfied for the tourists and the wealthy.
I hardly think a municipal mooring field would lead to the "Disneyfication" of the anchorage, any more than having marinas where you have to pay to berth did.
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